JT Miller vs Ryan Kesler

[MatthewMurdock]

You're not actually refuting anything I've said and don't seem to actually be comprehending what I've said either.

I clearly said Kesler was an ideal 2c/1b center, which was the main role he had in Vancouver. I also clearly said that he's hands down the better defensive player between him and Miller.

I'm not sure why you seem to think it's some egregious sin to say Miller is the better offensive player between the two of them. Miller gets better linemates because he plays on the first line against other teams top defensive match ups. Kesler played with lesser linemates but had the benefit of playing behind the Sedins at even strength.

This better linemates argument is kind of flawed too. Miller carried a 1st line with slumping linemates for huge portions of last season. There's a reason he finished with 31 more points than either of his most common linemates.

Miller has a career average of .71 ppg compared to Keslers career average of .57 ppg. It seems pretty likely that Miller is going to increase that gap in offensive production as well. On top of that in Kesler's best two offensive seasons he was involved with roughly 28% of the teams goals either season. This past season Miller was involved with a staggering 40% of the teams goals... You can cherrypick individual stats, argue linemates, or deployment but it doesn't change the fact that Kesler has never had an offensive season like Miller just had.

At the end of the day we're comparing two players that are better suited for different roles.

You said "Kesler had some amazing stretches but was never capable of putting up a season like Miller just had offensively." I refuted that point by suggesting in 2011 Kesler finished 15th in league scoring this season Miller finished 9th in league scoring. Kesler was 4th in the NHL in goals, Miller was 38th in the league in goals. You can't simply look at HockeyDB raw numbers and make conclusions, you need to look at context. League scoring is drastically different now than it was in 2011.

It's ridiculous to suggest that a guy that a guy that finished 15th in the entire NHL in points wasn't clearly a number 1 centre at his pinnacle. Using career PPG when the question clearly states "who's better at their peak" makes zero sense.

Kesler doesn't have the offensive longevity but clearly was among the elite players in the league at both ends of the rink during his peak. Again this argument stemmed from the fact that I suggested that Kesler would produce more at even strength with a linemate like Pettersson than a revolving door of tweener wingers.

Again I don't think Kesler was better than Miller offensively but I think it was closer than you think. Raw points isn't the way to assess things. As much as Pettersson and Boeser struggled at evens this year, they're much better than Raymond/Samuelsson.

Per Jfreshs model which adjusts even strength production over the 3 seasons Miller has played in Vancouver and Kesler's best 3 year stretch here. Kesler was a slightly better even strength goal scorer per 60 and actually his per 60 primary assists numbers were slightly better.

 

[MatthewMurdock]

It's hands down Miller. His "better linemates" were just dragged around by JT's coattails. Without JT, the nucks have a historically bad offensive season. Maybe Hughes alone cracks 60 points last year.

Keslers highest scoring season is lower than Millers worst as a Canuck. JT is more than capable of being an all situations player on a well run team, and already is really.

Many here are desperate to downplay JT's importance (MVP of this team without question) to stomach better a potential trade.

This is the most backwards way to look at things I've ever seen. League scoring is up drastically now than it was during Kesler's peak. Kesler's best point finish relative to the league is 15th and JT Miller's worse season as a Canucks he finished 40th in the league in points.

Can we stop using raw point totals when comparing two different decades? Kesler's two best finishes league wide are 15th and 21st Miller's is 9th and 16. Kesler in his two seasons finishes 1st and 2nd in Selke voting, Miller in his by every metric bled scoring chances against and was poor defensively.

 

[AppleHoneySauce]

Kes easily. Way better defender, at worst slightly worse offensively, and my mums favorite canuck.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

It's hands down Miller. His "better linemates" were just dragged around by JT's coattails. Without JT, the nucks have a historically bad offensive season. Maybe Hughes alone cracks 60 points last year.

Keslers highest scoring season is lower than Millers worst as a Canuck. JT is more than capable of being an all situations player on a well run team, and already is really.

Many here are desperate to downplay JT's importance (MVP of this team without question) to stomach better a potential trade.

Yeah no. Not really no.

 

[DFAC]

Kesler easily, at his peak he was a two way beast

 

[tiny103]

2011 Playoffs, Second round.

 

[Hit the post]

A team can more easily afford a Selke candidate over a 100 point player in terms of the cap.

Having a Kesler means Horvat can concentrate more on offensive duties which will likely impact (positive) his numbers.

 

[Vakarte]

Come on now

 

[bandwagonesque]

Kesler pretty easily.

 

[Hollywood Burrows]

both Americans, but Kesler doesn't have the Benning stink on him

 

[iceburg]

40+ goals and a Selke. Nuff said.

 

[Bankerguy]

Prime Kesler takes this.
40 goals and a freakin Selke. Pretty tough to beat that.

If Kesler was a better playmaker, he'd have been a 100 pt player..with this speed and on-puck presence... pretty impressive player.

 

[Hit the post]

40+ goals and a Selke. Nuff said.

Career playoff games:
Kesler: 24 goals in 101 games
Miller: 9 goals in 78 games

The "disparity" in the offensive prowess of Miller over Kesler isn't remotely as great as the defensive acumen of both players in their primes.

Kesler >>>>

 

[MS]

2009-2011 Kesler was an absolute two-way monster on par with - or maybe even better than - a peak Bergeron.

Unfortunately he was only able to sustain that level of play for 2 years before injuries wrecked him while Bergeron has sustained it for over a decade and the HHOF.

Miller is great but simply not at that level in terms of two-way play.

 

[docbenton]

Miller continues to be underrated. Kesler only had that many points because of a career year playing on a league best PP with the Sedins. Miller led his team by 30 points; with all due respect to Pettersson or Boeser or whoever, he essentially was on an island and drove the bus every night.

In terms of impact I don't think it's even comparable what they brought to the table for each team.

 

[Hit the post]

2009-2011 Kesler was an absolute two-way monster on par with - or maybe even better than - a peak Bergeron.

Unfortunately he was only able to sustain that level of play for 2 years before injuries wrecked him while Bergeron has sustained it for over a decade and the HHOF.

Miller is great but simply not at that level in terms of two-way play.

Unfortunately, any thoughts of "maybe I should dial it back a few notches" near the home stretch of the regular season to conserve my energy/strength with Kesler. He didn't have an "on/off switch" in terms of 'pacing himself'.

Miller continues to be underrated. Kesler only had that many points because of a career year playing on a league best PP with the Sedins. Miller led his team by points; with all due respect to Pettersson or Boeser or whoever, he essentially was on an island and drove the bus every night.

In terms of impact I don't think it's even comparable what they brought to the table for each team.

lol, Demko was the bus driver.

 

[iceburg]

Miller continues to be underrated. Kesler only had that many points because of a career year playing on a league best PP with the Sedins. Miller led his team by 30 points; with all due respect to Pettersson or Boeser or whoever, he essentially was on an island and drove the bus every night.

In terms of impact I don't think it's even comparable what they brought to the table for each team.

I agree. The 2011 team went to the SCF. The 2022 team didn't make the playoffs.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

Everything went right in Kes' peak seasons. The team was 1st in every category, he had 2 of the top 5 scorers in the league ahead of him, 2 goal scoring wingers and a lethal PP. Even the shutdown duties were given to Manny in 11. With all that, his production is still absolutely dwarfed by Miller. His beast mode vs Nashville still leaves him with only 1 more goal and point in 8 more games than JT's bubble run.

The season JT just had is more comparable to Henriks in 2011. He just did it without a Danny, Kes, loaded D or a competently run team. His next closest teammate was 45 spots down the scoring lead, and a Dman to boot!

JT is a better goal scorer, far better playmaker, not as fast but still a great skater. He can play in all situations, and I expect will be even better than last season if Bruce has the team clicking this year.

If you have both Kes and JT, and need both to play C, it's clear cut who the #1 is.

 

[racerjoe]

Everything went right in Kes' peak seasons. The team was 1st in every category, he had 2 of the top 5 scorers in the league ahead of him, 2 goal scoring wingers and a lethal PP. Even the shutdown duties were given to Manny in 11. With all that, his production is still absolutely dwarfed by Miller. His beast mode vs Nashville still leaves him with only 1 more goal and point in 8 more games than JT's bubble run.

The season JT just had is more comparable to Henriks in 2011. He just did it without a Danny, Kes, loaded D or a competently run team. His next closest teammate was 45 spots down the scoring lead, and a Dman to boot!

JT is a better goal scorer, far better playmaker, not as fast but still a great skater. He can play in all situations, and I expect will be even better than last season if Bruce has the team clicking this year.

If you have both Kes and JT, and need both to play C, it's clear cut who the #1 is.

You want to compare JT to Hank????

Kes is the better goal scorer... I don't think that can be disputed.

As has been pointed out stop looking at raw data, points last season were higher league wide. The difference between them at their peak, was 15th in scoring vs 9th. That is way closer.

 

[4Twenty]

I can’t believe folks value inflated point collecting totals on a mediocre at best (eliminated in November) team over the motor of this franchises best season.


Insane.


Also, if the argument is that Miller did it all with no help, why does he have 70 assists and 29 goals? Lots of secondary points too. Really weird. I wonder how much Hughes is involved in those.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

You want to compare JT to Hank????

Kes is the better goal scorer... I don't think that can be disputed.

As has been pointed out stop looking at raw data, points last season were higher league wide. The difference between them at their peak, was 15th in scoring vs 9th. That is way closer.

You call 15th close to 9th, but scoff at comparing 9th to 4th? Sedins and Kes had eachother, JT has had pretty much just Hughes.

JT is definitely the better goal scorer. League scoring is up yes, but the teams scoring is down. JT makes up a staggering % of the teams points. Keslers best 3 seasons vs Jt's 3 years here are nearly identical in goals per game.

 

[racerjoe]

You call 15th close to 9th, but scoff at comparing 9th to 4th? Sedins and Kes had eachother, JT has had pretty much just Hughes.

JT is definitely the better goal scorer. League scoring is up yes, but the teams scoring is down. JT makes up a staggering % of the teams points. Keslers best 3 seasons vs Jt's 3 years here are nearly identical in goals per game.

#1 in league scoring not 4th... again peak to peak.

Kes 40 goals... in suppressed scoring... 32 in his best.

Offensive starts vs defensive. the list goes on and on.

Like it shouldn't be much of an argument if we are talking peak performances.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Miller continues to be underrated. Kesler only had that many points because of a career year playing on a league best PP with the Sedins. Miller led his team by 30 points; with all due respect to Pettersson or Boeser or whoever, he essentially was on an island and drove the bus every night.

In terms of impact I don't think it's even comparable what they brought to the table for each team.

Kesler lead the team in PP goals a year prior that on the second unit without the Sedins, so stop this bs narrative that he benefited playing with the Sedins, when the Sedins equally benefited playing alongside him.

 

[bsu]

Kesler

 

[Hit the post]

And, as much as I've said that I don't thing Hughes is a #1D yet, one cannot deny his elite level offensive ability. Erhroff was as poor man's Hughes.