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Player Discussion JT Miller Thread

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PuckMunchkin said:
You really should post that long list of anomalies!

It will be super insightful to everyone here going forward!

And stops playing when things get hard.
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Your takes on Miller are odd.

Are you lurking in the weeds waiting for him to falter so you can say i told you so? The problem PM is that ship has sailed.

He's been the driving force with Hughes mainly to a division championship and maybe a Presidents trophy and has a 1.10ppg since donning a Canuck uniform.
29 million we've paid this guy for 390pts and counting while winning 55% faceoffs +30 matching against top lines and along with the Tkachuk brothers and Tom Wilson the most physical top6 forwards in the NHL.

We're at 12 million plus easy in surplus value yet you're concerned about his last couple yrs and keep driving that point home?

Here is a list and if you want to counter i would appreciate a list that has players with similar statistical profiles at 28-31 that would support it. Injuries can happen to anyone but also may not it's not a solid foundation for an argument when deciding to retain a perfectly healthy player going into a competitive window.

The best comp----pts 30-36---GP
Brad Marchand----- 100-87-69-80-67-63 (10 games to go)-? = 466.......418 games
others
Jarome Iginla-------98-89-69-86-67-33-61 = 503pts......532 games
Marian Hossa--------51-57-77-31-60-61-33 = 370...........461
Henrik Zetterberg - 80-69-48-48-66-50-68 = 429...........494
Patrice Bergeron---68-53-63-79-56-48-65 = 432............476
Blake Wheeler------74-91-91-65-46-60-55 = 482.............503

Note: There is a bunch of players who dont meet his scoring rates who have maintained close to what they were scoring from 30-36...D.Brown Williams Carter Getzlaf Doan etc.
example: David Perron will be in his 7th post 30 season next year and has 313pts in 399 games. He's never come close to a 5yr stretch of 1.1 ppg like JT Miller.

Also left out Crosby Malkin Staal Kopitar Kane Ovechkin Marleau Thornton Pavelski Giroux and other scorers that don't play a similar cycle game and role. Didnt go back as far as Sakic Selanne Yzerman Sundin Mogilny etc Doesn't leave that many players who are as good that fit his profile because he's that good.

If he stays healthy the Marchand comp is the best one. Similar play style offensively and a good 2 way C maybe Pettersson moves him to the wing where his defensive responsibilities are less as he ages.
 
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God said:
During the 4 game losing streak, JTM was the only player going. Everybody else was flat.

I think we can all agree that JT's evolved as a player, and thankfully there's Tocchet and company to keep his bad habits in check.
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He is referring to what people were saying about Miller last season.

Everything has gone right this year and JT has had no reason to be his moody self.

I do think he has changed and that Tocchet has got through to him but we will need true hardship to test that theory.
 
sting101 said:
Your takes on Miller are odd.

Are you lurking in the weeds waiting for him to falter so you can say i told you so? The problem PM is that ship has sailed.
Click to expand...

Im just pushing back on this idea that people last season were idiots for disliking the extension.
sting101 said:
He's been the driving force with Hughes mainly to a division championship and maybe a Presidents trophy and has a 1.10ppg since donning a Canuck uniform.
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Its very much Quinn Hughes 5on5.
sting101 said:
29 million we've paid this guy for 390pts and counting while winning 55% faceoffs +30 matching against top lines and along with the Tkachuk brothers and Tom Wilson the most physical top6 forwards in the NHL.

We're at 12 million plus easy in surplus value yet you're concerned about his last couple yrs and keep driving that point home?

Here is a list and if you want to counter i would appreciate a list that has players with similar statistical profiles at 28-31 that would support it. Injuries can happen to anyone but also may not it's not a solid foundation for an argument when deciding to retain a perfectly healthy player going into a competitive window.

The best comp----pts 30-36---GP
Brad Marchand----- 100-87-69-80-67-63 (10 games to go)-? = 466.......418 games
others
Jarome Iginla-------98-89-69-86-67-33-61 = 503pts......532 games
Marian Hossa--------51-57-77-31-60-61-33 = 370...........461
Henrik Zetterberg - 80-69-48-48-66-50-68 = 429...........494
Patrice Bergeron---68-53-63-79-56-48-65 = 432............476
Blake Wheeler------74-91-91-65-46-60-55 = 482.............503

Note: There is a bunch of players who dont meet his scoring rates who have maintained close to what they were scoring from 30-36...D.Brown Williams Carter Getzlaf Doan etc.
example: David Perron will be in his 7th post 30 season next year and has 313pts in 399 games. He's never come close to a 5yr stretch of 1.1 ppg like JT Miller.

Also left out Crosby Malkin Staal Kopitar Kane Ovechkin Marleau Thornton Pavelski Giroux and other scorers that don't play a similar cycle game and role. Didnt go back as far as Sakic Selanne Yzerman Sundin Mogilny etc Doesn't leave that many players who are as good that fit his profile because he's that good.

If he stays healthy the Marchand comp is the best one. Similar play style offensively and a good 2 way C maybe Pettersson moves him to the wing where his defensive responsibilities are less as he ages.
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That is a very big if. Only Iginla and Doan in your list played the physical style Miller does.
 
PuckMunchkin said:
Im just pushing back on this idea that people last season were idiots for disliking the extension.

Its very much Quinn Hughes 5on5.

That is a very big if. Only Iginla and Doan in your list played the physical style Miller does.
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So maybe he dials it back physically? He has a ton of natural talent. What about guys like Thornton, Marleau, Burns, Perry?
I’ll give you a list in a bit and I’m sure you’ll move the goalposts and have a smarmy response.

You’ve already admitted to only watching only 2 games this season a while ago. Stat fella.
 
PuckMunchkin said:
And I just want to add, again, that Miller has proven me wrong.

I have no trouble admitting this.
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That he is moody, or was. No dead on.

I haven't read your post in regards to Miller but I will assume it has to do with him overall and maybe that long term contract that might still turn into an albatross the last 2/3 years.

Like most posters he wasn't THE choice between him and Horvat for one reason or another.

I think it's great he is playing the way he is, in my posts this is what I expected in scoring except I thought him and Tocchet would bump heads, not get along.

I was against his signing not because I thought he wasn't any good, in fact I posted I thought he was a "win now" player due to his age.

No, it is the length of his contract combined with the lack of prospect depth. I still will say I think if he is the 2nd line center in 2/3 more years the team is in trouble AND I still think he will fall off a cliff. He should have a similar role as Tavaras where he is marginally 2nd and 3rd line center. Miller has not been at that level for as long.

And I have posted, at first, I thought it was a dumb trade that benefited Tampa more as it allowed them to get two cups.
But he has transformed himself this year by reversing his demonstrations of negative emotion. Remember when Garland had to get between him and Schenn while skating off the ice.

But I have posted he is a playoff type player, they need that edge for the real season.

I am impressed with his change in attitude. He smiles now.

Bobby9 said:
Need to find a way to put his demeanor and passion in Boeser, EP and Myers.
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Boeser need the demeanor, new legs and a new address.
EP should just stop trying to go for the knock down hit.
Myers did flatten that guy out last game.
 
man oh man we watched so many acquisitions being worse than the what we thought was the worst case scenario: OJ, sbisa, gudbranson, OEL, eriksson, sutter, virtanen, holtby. and that’s not including myers, who has cut it pretty close at many points, or ferland, whose worst case scenario was extremely predictable but literally couldn’t be exceeded.

so it’s nice to see jtm turning out better than anybody could possibly have imagined. when we got him i knew he was a good player but he was basically the player young montreal higgins was projected to be (and almost was) right? for him to morph into a pt per game guy in vancouver in the second half of his twenties was unforeseen, but then to level up a second time and become a top ten scorer at the end of his twenties was almost completely unprecedented. and a guy like that (you can take that in at least three ways hehe) to want to stay in vancouver and take a fairly reasonable deal, i don’t think anybody could have seen the totality of all that happening. it completely exceeded and left behind the ceiling of what he could be and provide us. remember also that this was a career sub-0.5 pts/game guy in the playoffs, the owner of three career playoff goals over his 61 playoff games prior to coming here and he puts up a multi-round pt/game+ run here and triples his career playoff goal total in one spring.

but this also makes me think, what other acquisitions from the JB era could we say exceeded expectations? petey has hit his best case scenario as a star center but for a top pick i don’t think he’s exceeded it. hughes maybe, because i don’t think anyone could have reasonably expected a dman in the bottom half of the top ten with his obvious physical question marks to be such a game changing force. but otoh if “another brian leetch” was hughes’ ceiling as a prospect, well that’s what he is, except unlike leetch he didn’t have a growth spurt after the draft (but it isn’t really holding him back). demko… well goalies are a crapshoot but he was drafted as a potential star starting goalie and he has become that.

so really jtm, the sole anti-eriksson anti-sutter anti-gud anti-OJ anti-etc etc. i think it’s just one of those things where every generation or so a crazy ass bolt of lightning will hit the franchise, like shadily getting and getting to keep bure a year earlier than he was expected to be drafted, or markus naslund being the rare reclamation project to not only hit but late bloomingly max out or future third line shutdown center developing a shot and an offensive game and scoring 40 goals while still being in the top handful of guys defensively. jtm is that. no one can take credit for that, every now and then you just find money on the street.
 
vadim sharifijanov said:
man oh man we watched so many acquisitions being worse than the what we thought was the worst case scenario: OJ, sbisa, gudbranson, OEL, eriksson, sutter, virtanen, holtby. and that’s not including myers, who has cut it pretty close at many points, or ferland, whose worst case scenario was extremely predictable but literally couldn’t be exceeded.

so it’s nice to see jtm turning out better than anybody could possibly have imagined. when we got him i knew he was a good player but he was basically the player young montreal higgins was projected to be (and almost was) right? for him to morph into a pt per game guy in vancouver in the second half of his twenties was unforeseen, but then to level up a second time and become a top ten scorer at the end of his twenties was almost completely unprecedented. and a guy like that (you can take that in at least three ways hehe) to want to stay in vancouver and take a fairly reasonable deal, i don’t think anybody could have seen the totality of all that happening. it completely exceeded and left behind the ceiling of what he could be and provide us. remember also that this was a career sub-0.5 pts/game guy in the playoffs, the owner of three career playoff goals over his 61 playoff games prior to coming here and he puts up a multi-round pt/game+ run here and triples his career playoff goal total in one spring.

but this also makes me think, what other acquisitions from the JB era could we say exceeded expectations? petey has hit his best case scenario as a star center but for a top pick i don’t think he’s exceeded it. hughes maybe, because i don’t think anyone could have reasonably expected a dman in the bottom half of the top ten with his obvious physical question marks to be such a game changing force. but otoh if “another brian leetch” was hughes’ ceiling as a prospect, well that’s what he is, except unlike leetch he didn’t have a growth spurt after the draft (but it isn’t really holding him back). demko… well goalies are a crapshoot but he was drafted as a potential star starting goalie and he has become that.

so really jtm, the sole anti-eriksson anti-sutter anti-gud anti-OJ anti-etc etc. i think it’s just one of those things where every generation or so a crazy ass bolt of lightning will hit the franchise, like shadily getting and getting to keep bure a year earlier than he was expected to be drafted, or markus naslund being the rare reclamation project to not only hit but late bloomingly max out or future third line shutdown center developing a shot and an offensive game and scoring 40 goals while still being in the top handful of guys defensively. jtm is that. no one can take credit for that, every now and then you just find money on the street.
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Considering where Pettersson was ranked before the draft, he definitely exceeded expectations....He was ranked around 9th OA (by draft standard/ predictor Bob McK, and even here by HF Van)...He was basically a reach.

Demko,Hoglander, Boeser are all exceeding expectations relative to where they drafted.

While Miller has definitely exceeded expectations.. we definitely gave up some pretty hefty currency to acquire him.
 
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HairyKneel said:
So maybe he dials it back physically? He has a ton of natural talent. What about guys like Thornton, Marleau, Burns, Perry?
I’ll give you a list in a bit and I’m sure you’ll move the goalposts and have a smarmy response.
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Maybe posters that disagree with you feel "smarmy" to you because you are more sensitive than the average poster here?

You honestly think listing ~15 exceptions out of hundreds of players will convince anyone that aging curves are actually not a thing..?
HairyKneel said:
You’ve already admitted to only watching only 2 games this season a while ago. Stat fella.
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I've missed 6 or 7 games this year.
 
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PuckMunchkin said:
Maybe posters that disagree with you feel "smarmy" to you because you are more sensitive than the average poster here?

You honestly think listing ~15 exceptions out of hundreds of players will convince anyone that aging curves are actually not a thing..?

I've missed 6 or 7 games this year.
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The only smarmy poster I’ve come across is yourself. You get caved in pretty regularly then move goalposts and refuse to take a knee.

I could give you 60 or 80 players in the last 10 years ago I here their game doesn’t completely crater at 35. BTW Miller is off the contract at 37. You would know he’s an elite player if you watched a few more games. But you have picked at this player like a crow on a carcass for no reason.

The cap is going up. The guy is a physical specimen. Again, watch the games. It’ll educate you a little about the league.
 
HairyKneel said:
The only smarmy poster I’ve come across is yourself. You get caved in pretty regularly then move goalposts and refuse to take a knee.
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I think you are the most hostile poster around. While also being consistently most wrong.

And I see you going for ad hominem attacks in all your arguments with everyone. You run out of facts really quick and then try to attack the posters who disagree with you:


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Post-Game Talk: - Canucks def. Jets | 5-0 (Miller, Hoglander, Pettersson, Di Giuseppe, Suter) | Shot Down in Flames

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Player Discussion - JT Miller Thread

EP ended the previous season getting body slammed by some scrub. Absolutely go out and get the meanest top line player you can. Perfect trade.
forums.hfboards.com forums.hfboards.com

All these just the past few weeks... Feel a bit bad for you tbh...

HairyKneel said:
I could give you 60 or 80 players in the last 10 years ago I here their game doesn’t completely crater at 35.
Click to expand...

Ah. "Completely crater" is the goal post now? So you agree that aging curves are real and are now moving the post to what ever you think "completely crater" means...?

HairyKneel said:
BTW Miller is off the contract at 37. You would know he’s an elite player if you watched a few more games.
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I agree. He is an elite player.

Why do you keep lying about how many games I watch?

Dont have much faith in your actual argument if you need to make shit up...?
HairyKneel said:
But you have picked at this player like a crow on a carcass for no reason.
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I have admitted that I was wrong about Miller.
HairyKneel said:
The cap is going up. The guy is a physical specimen. Again, watch the games. It’ll educate you a little about the league.
Click to expand...
I dont know how many games you watch but it has obviously not helped you understand shit about the game.
 
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So you’re a bit butt hurt I have chosen to call you out. I’m sorry but I think most of my points stand. Hostility….. nah…. Brutally honest, you betcha!

I may have been a bit harsh on you. Sorry Buds.
 
HairyKneel said:
So you’re a bit butt hurt I have chosen to call you out. I’m sorry but I think most of my points stand. Hostility….. nah…. Brutally honest, you betcha!

I may have been a bit harsh on you. Sorry Buds.
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Dodged my entire post again I see.

What points do you think you have made exactly? I cant remember a coherent point.

Last I remember you were going to dig up 60-80 players "who did not completely crater at the age of 35." Im curious what you think that would have accomplished?
 
HairyKneel said:
So you’re a bit butt hurt I have chosen to call you out. I’m sorry but I think most of my points stand. Hostility….. nah…. Brutally honest, you betcha!

I may have been a bit harsh on you. Sorry Buds.
Click to expand...
Guess you dont have a response..?

Oh well.

Maybe aging curves are real after all?
 
JTM is by far our best forward its not even funny. He raises the level of everyone around him. Hughes is our best player, but JTM is the heart and soul of this team.
 
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