Player Discussion JT Miller Thread

[Tables of Stats]

Playing like a man possessed. Jt Miller is everywhere on the ice, standing out above and beyond everyone else doing just about everything in another gear offensively and defensively. He is definitely taking this team on his shoulders right now and the fans are loving him for it.

That shorty last night was beautiful, I was screaming of joy at my computer screen.

If only he could get that spirit to possess Petty and Lindy.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I agree. He had his faults but he was a top 6 player who was pushed down a stacked lineup. Getting a legit top 6 player in their mid 20s under a solid contract is worth a mid 1st. People can complain about the timing but at some point you have to add good players instead of just look to the draft. I did think he probably could have been cheaper given Tampa’s cap constraint but it’s hard to say without knowing if other teams were interested. I was as tough on Benning as anyone but it certainly wasn’t a bad deal at the time. Was at worst an ok deal. Seems silly to rag on it now.

We can't re-write history due to positive recent results. That trade at that time was misaligned (to be kind). By that point in time, the Canucks were 6 years removed from the playoffs and were trending to miss again. Short of Bubble Shenanigans, probably would have missed again. That's the context.

And they did miss again for 3 years afterward.

We can say he's been a good find even though that trade was absurd at the time. Both things can be true.

 

[Tables of Stats]

We can't re-write history due to positive recent results. That trade at that time was misaligned (to be kind). By that point in time, the Canucks were 6 years removed from the playoffs and were trending to miss again. Short of Bubble Shenanigans, probably would have missed again. That's the context.

And they did miss again for 3 years afterward.

We can say he's been a good find even though that trade was absurd at the time. Both things can be true.

I think that if we hadn't picked up Miller we'd be in a position where Pettersson and Hughes are both already gone and we're rebuilding the rebuild. That might be what some people wanted, heck even as god as this season has been people are still wary, but sitting through another half decade of being terrible in hopes we draft players better than Pettersson and Hughes doesn't sound appealing.

 

[Regal]

We can't re-write history due to positive recent results. That trade at that time was misaligned (to be kind). By that point in time, the Canucks were 6 years removed from the playoffs and were trending to miss again. Short of Bubble Shenanigans, probably would have missed again. That's the context.

And they did miss again for 3 years afterward.

We can say he's been a good find even though that trade was absurd at the time. Both things can be true.

I’m not rewriting history. It wasn’t a bad deal at the time, some people were just being stupid because they were sick of Benning and EA sports has created this bizarre complex where everyone over 25 is too old to rebuild with. Adding a 26 year old top 6 forward for a mid 1st is never a bad deal. You can say it wasn’t the ideal time, but that doesn’t make it absurd. You need to have players at various stages of development, and it’s not as if Miller’s value was likely to go down over the contract. They could still have traded him again to recoup assets.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Bizarre how some posters still downplay the Canucks 2020 playoff performance.

That gave us a clear preview of what our future core was going to become..Miller was an integral part..on and off the ice.

I believe without Miller,we’d currently be a team fighting for a wild card spot.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I’m not rewriting history. It wasn’t a bad deal at the time, some people were just being stupid because they were sick of Benning and EA sports has created this bizarre complex where everyone over 25 is too old to rebuild with. Adding a 26 year old top 6 forward is never a bad deal.

It is if your team is not set up to take advantage of that player. Lipstick on a pig.

This has nothing to do with video games, or Benning's incompetence (which is legendary). It's simply looking at team effectiveness at the time and assessing how much impact such a move would make. The evidence shows that it wasn't much. They were 6 years in the basement before the trade and three years back in the basement post bubble playoffs. That's the result. That's what they thought they were adding a 26 year old top6 forward to.

You're not going to get a sense of age impacts until Miller starts to decline mid way through his contract. To this point though, he's been great... on a generally bad team.

 

[Knight53]

 

[im gangster]

Bizarre how some posters still downplay the Canucks 2020 playoff performance.

That gave us a clear preview of what our future core was going to become..Miller was an integral part..on and off the ice.

I believe without Miller,we’d currently be a team fighting for a wild card spot.

Are you @stuffcalebsaid from x?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Regardless of where the Canucks were ..in their rebuild, or declining, or wherever they were in their cycle...declaring the trade as 'ill timed' is utter nonsense..Millers value as an asset (4 years @ $5.25M) was insanely great value.

Claiming the team didn't achieve as much after trading for Miller is also nonsense...Its not like you can make a trade like this this anytime you feel like it..(even with a 1st round pick in hand)..The chance to make this kind of trade only comes around once..you either take it, or you dont.

I think most of the folks that argue this trade are the ones that hate the fact Benning made it..and to be clear I'm not biased here..This good trade doesn't make up for the two awful ones involving Gudbranson and OEL.

 

[im gangster]

I think most of the folks that argue this trade are the ones that hate the fact Benning made it..and to be clear I'm not biased here..This good trade doesn't make up for the two awful ones involving Gudbranson and OEOEL.

Who else even talks about that trade unless you bring it up? You only love it because Benning made it.

 

[Tables of Stats]

It is if your team is not set up to take advantage of that player. Lipstick on a pig.

This has nothing to do with video games, or Benning's incompetence (which is legendary). It's simply looking at team effectiveness at the time and assessing how much impact such a move would make. The evidence shows that it wasn't much. They were 6 years in the basement before the trade and three years back in the basement post bubble playoffs. That's the result. That's what they thought they were adding a 26 year old top6 forward to.

You're not going to get a sense of age impacts until Miller starts to decline mid way through his contract. To this point though, he's been great... on a generally bad team.

The fact is that Miller's numbers projected him to be a 60-70 point center who's points were mostly limited due to his low ice-time on a stacked Tampa roster. His value was always more likely to go up than it was to go down so if the team ultimately failed to show any progress he was an asset that we could move for more than we paid to acquire him.

TLDR; There is never a bad time to pick up an appreciating asset.

 

[Bleach Clean]

The fact is that Miller's numbers projected him to be a 60-70 point center who's points were mostly limited due to his low ice-time on a stacked Tampa roster. His value was always more likely to go up than it was to go down so if the team ultimately failed to show any progress he was an asset that we could move for more than we paid to acquire him.

TLDR; There is never a bad time to pick up an appreciating asset.

There is a bad time when coming off 6 years of missed playoffs, dealing a future 1st with an unknown position, and then you miss the playoffs for the next 3 years and fail to trade said asset for value over and above the perceived value of the pick at the time of trade.

 

[LordBacon]

Here for my daily dose of crow.
8 mil for JT rn is a f***ing steal.

 

[EpochLink]

I still can't believe we got NIK JENSEN from that 2011 draft, we just lost the Finals in 7 games and that was our answer? NIK JENSEN?

HOLY ****, Nik Jensen.

 

[Tables of Stats]

There is a bad time when coming off 6 years of missed playoffs, dealing a future 1st with an unknown position, and then you miss the playoffs for the next 3 years and fail to trade said asset for value over and above the perceived value of the pick at the time of trade.

So are you in the camp that we should have rebuilt the rebuild and accepted sucking for another 3 - ??? years in the hopes of hitting on players better than Pettersson and Hughes (If they even agreed to stay for such a rebuild) or did you think that improvement would come from some other avenue that didn't involve trading futures?

Unless we were forced to give up a top-5 pick the player we drafted wasn't going to be the first-line player that Miller projected as at the time of the trade. I know people here were calling him a 3rd liner and think that Miller growing into a star was some fluke but that isn't what his underlying numbers said. We got a bargain basement top-10 (top-5?) center for pennies on the dollar and with some smart GMing we're now reaping the rewards and it cost us a 20th OA pick, and nothing else of consequence.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

The fact is that Miller's numbers projected him to be a 60-70 point center who's points were mostly limited due to his low ice-time on a stacked Tampa roster. His value was always more likely to go up than it was to go down so if the team ultimately failed to show any progress he was an asset that we could move for more than we paid to acquire him.

TLDR; There is never a bad time to pick up an appreciating asset.

He was a distressed asset.

Self admittedly his own worst enemy with his inability to control his emotions.

We saw it last season with the meltdowns.

 

[Bleach Clean]

So are you in the camp that we should have rebuilt the rebuild and accepted sucking for another 3 - ??? years in the hopes of hitting on players better than Pettersson and Hughes (If they even agreed to stay for such a rebuild) or did you think that improvement would come from some other avenue that didn't involve trading futures?

Is the frame now that the opposite of dealing that pick is to rebuild the rebuild?

You can trade futures if your team is positioned to compete. They were not at that time, clearly, as history shows.

Unless we were forced to give up a top-5 pick the player we drafted wasn't going to be the first-line player that Miller projected as at the time of the trade. I know people here were calling him a 3rd liner and think that Miller growing into a star was some fluke but that isn't what his underlying numbers said. We got a bargain basement top-10 (top-5?) center for pennies on the dollar and with some smart GMing we're now reaping the rewards and it cost us a 20th OA pick, and nothing else of consequence.

I don't think Miller was assured to be a top line player at the time of trade (again, iirc). He hadn't shown that in the traditional stats to that point (across NYR and TBay), nor did his underlying numbers across his career predict that outcome here. But even if he was a projected 2C, that was still a very risky gamble that ultimately, didn't move the needle for that team (3 years missed).

Oh, and Benning was ultimately fired for failing to recognize the state of that team. We are now onto Miller's second contract here, a while removed from when this management tried to also move Miller, but did not because they couldn't find a 6-year loser GM desperate enough to pony up an unprotected 1st...

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Is the frame now that the opposite of dealing that pick is to rebuild the rebuild?

Yes.

Also saying Lekkerimäki is trending like a bust, while he was trending like a bust, means you would have shot him out of a cannon last year.

Its strawman city baby!

 

[mriswith]

We were not competitive during his first contract, couldn't trade him for the pick we traded for him in the first place, and mgmt spent two years trying to trade him including after they signed him to the extension.

Literally everyone doubted him and wanted him traded at some point including current management and including after they signed him to an extension.

And they couldn't get value for him because no other front office in the league believed in Miller either. No one expected him to put up 100 points at age 31 and look like he's going to age like Pavelski.

This is year 1 of his 30+ 7 year deal. Everyone expected him to be worth his contract this year and the next couple. Team performance was a huge concern for year 1 but his individual performance in year 1 was never the concern nor were years 2 or 3.

Any argument about Miller on literally any aspect of his trade or contract that doesn't take every single one of the above points into consideration isn't even worth reading let alone responding to.

Our team being competitive now completely changes the outlook on the contract. We're going to actually get value out of every year that he's worth it starting in year 1 and that's transformative. That he's putting up another 100 point season and looks like he'll age like Pavelski is a welcome bonus that no one expected.

The cheers last game were 100% deserved especially after all the adversity he's had to deal with here, and even arguing about this seems lame. These are the days where you just soak in the outlier outcome and enjoy it.

Unless we were forced to give up a top-5 pick the player we drafted wasn't going to be the first-line player that Miller projected as at the time of the trade. I know people here were calling him a 3rd liner and think that Miller growing into a star was some fluke but that isn't what his underlying numbers said. We got a bargain basement top-10 (top-5?) center for pennies on the dollar and with some smart GMing we're now reaping the rewards and it cost us a 20th OA pick, and nothing else of consequence.

Lots of players put up good numbers from sheltered minutes and it doesn't translate to a bigger role. 3rd liner is an exaggeration, most expectations were a 50-60 point 2nd line winger. No one at the time expected Miller to become a star.

Miller had pretty much the same numbers at the time as Nyquist who was UFA, rumoured to be interested in Van and predicted to sign a similar contract so it wasn't Miller vs nothing, it was Miller vs Nyquist for free.

And more specifically it was whether risking Pollocking ourselves with a lottery first after drafting 5, 5, 7, 10 was worth the difference in value between Nyquist and Miller and there were no underlying numbers signalling that Miller would be a star and Nyquist would suck.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Miller when he’s on like he has been, most underrated player in the league.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

when we got him i thought he was a rich man’s higgins. both were guys who could play all three forward positions, strong along the boards, can do a lot of little things, and score in the 20-25 goal range. they were both mid-first round picks and seemed best suited to being a swiss army knife player you could slot in anywhere in the lineup.

the difference was higgins was 40-50 pt guy and miller was a 45-60 pt guy, so a little more scoring.

but of course the last thing the canucks in the summer of 2019 needed was a swiss army knife glue guy. that’s the kind of piece a contender needs but is wasted on a bottom feeder. and why would a team in cap hell take on salary to pick up a luxury piece that they can’t use?

ironically, tampa traded the pick we gave them for miller for a cheaper model of that swiss army knife glue guy, blake coleman. and funnily enough, coleman himself has now unexpectedly leveled up later in his career to transcend that role.

but i digress, who could have foreseen miller becoming a bona fide pt/game player?

and who could have foreseen miller establishing himself as best suited to being a true full-time core piece center?

and then making that second jump to top ten scorer?

all of it has been bananas.

 

[theguardianII]

I have always liked Miller BUT not the term of that contract.
Always have posted he is a win now player.

 

[aquaweenie]

LETS GO JT!

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Miller when he’s on like he has been, most underrated player in the league.

..and underrated/ taken for granted by the Canucks fanbase.

 

[Tables of Stats]

Lots of players put up good numbers from sheltered minutes and it doesn't translate to a bigger role. 3rd liner is an exaggeration, most expectations were a 50-60 point 2nd line winger. No one at the time expected Miller to become a star.

Miller had pretty much the same numbers at the time as Nyquist who was UFA, rumoured to be interested in Van and predicted to sign a similar contract so it wasn't Miller vs nothing, it was Miller vs Nyquist for free.

And more specifically it was whether risking Pollocking ourselves with a lottery first after drafting 5, 5, 7, 10 was worth the difference in value between Nyquist and Miller and there were no underlying numbers signalling that Miller would be a star and Nyquist would suck.

I think that a lot of the disagreement is that I did have him pegged as a player on the verge of breaking out if given more minutes on a higher line and never thought he was the core player that needed to be traded.

Player Discussion - What do we have in J.T. Miller?

I know emotions are running high about the trade right now but I did some digging and it looks like Miller is a stud player. On Tampa last season he was their 5th best point producing forward (8th best goal-scoring forward) while playing the 9th most minutes. He was getting good PP TOI per...

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Player Discussion - What do we have in J.T. Miller?

???? Has Baertschi ever hit 40 By the numbers Baertschi is interchangeable with Miller if not for his injuries.

forums.hfboards.com

Player Discussion - What do we have in J.T. Miller?

Don't worry everyone ... according to Benning's presser, Miller also scored very highly on his "mentor machine" and will almost certainly positively impact the development of all our young forwards. Thank gosh! He'll be great for mentoring the 1st overall pick in 2021!

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Player Discussion - What do we have in J.T. Miller?

Why must any attempt at improvement come at the expense of a first round pick for a team that's crested 83 points once in 6 seasons. I don't think anybody was inclined for the team not to do anything, that's you creating a false argument to argue with. Who wants to completely blow it up after...

forums.hfboards.com

Player Discussion - What do we have in J.T. Miller?

Why must any attempt at improvement come at the expense of a first round pick for a team that's crested 83 points once in 6 seasons. I don't think anybody was inclined for the team not to do anything, that's you creating a false argument to argue with. Who wants to completely blow it up after...

forums.hfboards.com

Player Discussion - What do we have in J.T. Miller?

Why must any attempt at improvement come at the expense of a first round pick for a team that's crested 83 points once in 6 seasons. I don't think anybody was inclined for the team not to do anything, that's you creating a false argument to argue with. Who wants to completely blow it up after...

forums.hfboards.com

Player Discussion - What do we have in J.T. Miller?

Why must any attempt at improvement come at the expense of a first round pick for a team that's crested 83 points once in 6 seasons. I don't think anybody was inclined for the team not to do anything, that's you creating a false argument to argue with. Who wants to completely blow it up after...

forums.hfboards.com

Player Discussion - What do we have in J.T. Miller?

What people forget is Vancouver was not the only team Tampa had to move salary to. They had a plethora of players they could have moved out, and many teams would be interested in many of those players. Tampa didn't have a plethora of players to move. From the group of nine players making $4M+...

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Player Discussion - What do we have in J.T. Miller?

DeHaan has had four major shoulder surgeries. Benning overpaid for Miller, but the comparison with DeHaan is senseless. He would be our 4th best D man behind Edler, Hughes and Stecher. Also the trade doesnt include a potential lottery pick. I value top 4 D men far above 50p wingers.

forums.hfboards.com

Player Discussion - What do we have in J.T. Miller?

I could not disagree more. You have to show and prove for debates to go anywhere. What me2 did by outlining Higgins' EVPs is push to quantify the comparison. He is outlining the importance of EVPs. This shows knowledge with advanced metrics. EVPs are more reliable than total points. The latter...

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I was bullish on him being a mid 1st-line level player and don't really care what others thought of him at the time.

I get that the issue was always more about the timing and the risk that we'd have to give up a very high value pick for Miller but hindsight is even making that look questionable. There haven't been that many players from those drafts that are tracking to be a Miller level player. I said at the time that'd be happy giving up a pick 12OA or worse for Miller and have been thus far vindicated in having made that assessment.