Jonathan Quick - 1 win in past 9 starts

[NHLPaul]

Quick has always been overrated bc of his clutch play. Hes very solid in the playoffs. He'll make some highlight reel saves in the regular season but he is average at best in the regular season.

 

[redcard]

True, although I would quibble with the use of the phrase "stuck with the loss" for a goalie who allowed two goals on seven shots.

You wouldn't if you watched that 2nd period.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Quick has always been overrated bc of his clutch play. Hes very solid in the playoffs.

To be fair, Quick has shown some clutch ability (see post #7 here):
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1702733

Conditional on your team making the playoffs, I'd rather have the guy who steps up in the playoffs.

 

[eklunds source]

Team issue, not really a Quick issue. And those usual suspects decrying his save percentage ignore context but I'll give a hint--kings rarely give up a lot of shots padding his stats but most of those shots are insanely high quality since they have possession and outshoot the opponents nearly every single game.

(emphasis mine)

It's great that you're forming hypothesis on why things are the way they are.. but you should probably get your facts straight first before touting them.

For example, the L.A. Kings this year have allowed roughly 12% less "insanely high quality" shots than the average NHL team, about 5% less semi-dangerous shots, and about 10% less low-percentage shots.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

You wouldn't if you watched that 2nd period.

I watched the entire game, thanks. It's still on my DVR if you want it.

 

[eklunds source]

To be fair, Quick has shown some clutch ability (see post #7 here):
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1702733

Drawing conclusions about goaltending based on a dozen games?

Even the 76 games total playoff games isn't a large enough sample.

 

[Baemon Severson*]

(emphasis mine)

It's great that you're forming hypothesis on why things are the way they are.. but you should probably get your facts straight first before touting them.

For example, the L.A. Kings this year have allowed roughly 12% less "insanely high quality" shots than the average NHL team, about 5% less semi-dangerous shots, and about 10% less low-percentage shots.

Great post. This myth that Quick is a top goalie needs to stop

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Drawing conclusions about goaltending based on a dozen games?

Even the 76 games total playoff games isn't a large enough sample.

I'd recommend reading the thread. That's why I provided the link.

You might like post #34 in particular.

 

[Maplebeasts]

Quick is a solid goalie, but not in the same tier as guys like Rinne, Lundqvist and Price. He makes extremely flashy saves and imo his status as an "Elite" goalie is living off of his monstrous 2012 cup run.

 

[MollerManor]

Drawing conclusions about goaltending based on a dozen games?

Even the 76 games total playoff games isn't a large enough sample.

76 games not enough?? Thats the 24th most of all goaltenders of ALL TIME. So I seriously question your threshold of what is "large enough."

No, he is not the best regular season goalie.

But by far the best active playoff goaltender right now, and statistically the top 20 best playoff goaltender of all time.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

76 games not enough?? Thats the 24th most of all goaltenders of ALL TIME. So I seriously question your threshold of what is "large enough."

His point - which is a valid one - is that a 76-game goaltender sample still contains a large amount of variance.

With that said, the thread I linked to addresses the issue.

What does "the top 20 best playoff goaltender of all time" mean?

 

[redcard]

I watched the entire game, thanks. It's still on my DVR if you want it.

So the guy comes into the game cold at the half-way point because the original starter had just given up 2 goals in 1:20, and sure enough 45 seconds later they cause a scramble in the offensive zone and score a 3rd and statistically the game winner. I don't care what goalie it is, that's getting stuck with an undeserved L.

 

[SladeWilson23]

I honestly don't think it's fair to judge goalies off of SV% alone. SV% in a vacuum tends to overrate or underrate a lot of goalies.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

So the guy comes into the game cold at the half-way point because the original starter had just given up 2 goals in 1:20, and sure enough 45 seconds later they cause a scramble in the offensive zone and score a 3rd and statistically the game winner. I don't care what goalie it is, that's getting stuck with an undeserved L.

I don't really even think that assigning wins or losses to goaltenders is a reasonable thing to do. It's an artifact from the early days of the league, where many of the statistical concepts were "borrowed" from baseball. Beyond that, the way that they currently assign wins and losses to goaltenders isn't the best way to do it (there have been games where goaltenders have received the loss without facing a single shot, let alone allowing a goal).

With that said, getting a loss for allowing 2 goals on 7 shots isn't the most unfair thing that I've seen in life.

 

[Cult of Hynes]

Quick has always been overrated bc of his clutch play. Hes very solid in the playoffs. He'll make some highlight reel saves in the regular season but he is average at best in the regular season.

Waaaaaaaaaa?????? I guess if we used your logic, Roy was overrated to because of his clutch play. He had, using your logic, average at best regular seasons.

Quick has put up 3 30+ win seasons and should have had the Vezina trophy over Lundqvist in 2011-2012 for how damn well he played and given the fact he helped an offensively challenged team into the 8th spot in the playoffs.

Quick is a solid goalie, but not in the same tier as guys like Rinne, Lundqvist and Price. He makes extremely flashy saves and imo his status as an "Elite" goalie is living off of his monstrous 2012 cup run.

And they are elite living off what? Zero cup rings and no conn smyth? They are all elite goalies.

As are most good goaltenders. Price, Quick, Rask, Lundqvist, Rinne, etc. all play behind good teams/defenses and have for a long period of time.

Price does not have a good defense in front of him, at least compared to the others mentioned. Rinne is the main piece that turns that Nashville team into a cup contender.

Bruins have a good defense but the Kings don't? Doughty, Muzzin, Martinez are all very good. Then they have forwards like Kopitar, Carter, Richards, Williams, etc. who are two-way guys.

I never said they werent good, but Quick carried a team into the playoffs in 2011-2012 and carried that team to a cup. Rask has yet to do that. So you call Quick overrated, yet dont think Rask is even though Quick has better hardware than Rask currently?

Team issue, not really a Quick issue. And those usual suspects decrying his save percentage ignore context but I'll give a hint--kings rarely give up a lot of shots padding his stats but most of those shots are insanely high quality since they have possession and outshoot the opponents nearly every single game.

They dont give up a large amount of high quality shots, but Quick has proven he is an elite goalie. But it isnt just him having a bad season and its not Quick's fault for the team under performing.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

(emphasis mine)

It's great that you're forming hypothesis on why things are the way they are.. but you should probably get your facts straight first before touting them.

For example, the L.A. Kings this year have allowed roughly 12% less "insanely high quality" shots than the average NHL team, about 5% less semi-dangerous shots, and about 10% less low-percentage shots.

Deleted chart to save space. Honest question--they may be allowing 'less' of those shots than other teams but what is the percentage of those shots vs. overall shots? That's my point (well, I guess hypothesis that just got annihilated if my question is wrong)--if the Kings give up 20 shots a game and other teams are giving up 30-40, those slightly less high quality shots are still a greater percentage of their shots against, which is a problem for save percentage. Was that clear?

"Insanely" high quality?

If "most" of the shots that the Kings face are of "insanely high quality", then they should be giving up 10-12 goals per game.

Fair enough, that was more hyperbolic than I intended. I guess I'm just saying that the Kings seem to go 6-7 minutes without a shot against, then there's a 3-on-1 or breakaway out of the blue. And, eye test, Quick is AWFUL when he's cold. He excels in games where he's seeing the heat the whole time. That partially explains his save percentage at the beginning of the year when we were under siege (i.e. Blues and Wild games) and playing dear-god-help-me defense and why when we do well in possession metrics that his save percentage drops like a rock. I'll see if I can back that up more because I haven't bothered trying to correlate our corsi rankings with quick's save percentage but would that be interesting/worthwhile?

Anyway, to the thread title, hard to slag him for the last 9 starts, though that one extra save would be nice. At least his stick manufacturer is happy

Edit: but it's absolutely fair to call me out on my lack of homework because I haven't done much of it this season.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Waaaaaaaaaa?????? I guess if we used your logic, Roy was overrated to because of his clutch play. He had, using your logic, average at best regular seasons.

Although I agree with your general thesis, Roy's regular seasons were far better than Quick's (to date).

 

[Analyzer*]

He and the rest of Los Angels have played a ridiculous amount of games over the last 3 years.

Quick isn't as good as some people say, but he's still a very good goalie.

 

[MetM]

Lost 5 of those games giving up only 2 goals. 3 of those games also went to the shootout, LA hasn't scored a shootout goal since November.

It's a team problem, not a goaltending problem.



Heh.

Sounds like Boston/Rask

 

[GOAT AINEC]

Quick makes huge saves every know and then but he is just an average goalie. I have never understood why people think he is a top 3 goalie.. If he was on any other team he would never even make the playoffs with how average he is in the regular season.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Quick makes huge saves every know and then but he is just an average goalie. I have never understood why people think he is a top 3 goalie.. If he was on any other team he would never even make the playoffs with how average he is in the regular season.

It's his playoffs rep rather than his regular season rep, but I'm not going to begrudge anyone that opinion because of how awesome the whole cadre of elite goals actually is. And Quick's regular seasons have been mostly average, but it's his peaks and valleys are actually higher and lower than other goaltenders...that evidence is all over our board, not going to repost it here because there's just too much.

Disagree on the 2nd though, Quick has actually demonstrated he can carry a team kicking and screaming to the playoffs. He is better with more action and I'm pretty sure it's Dr. No that published that on the numbers board. If not, again, when I'm free I'll try to link the Kings numbers to Quick's later because I think it will be an interesting read.

Over the last nine games though, he's been decidedly average. He's not THE problem, but he's not doing what an elite goalie does right now.

 

[redcard]

Quick makes huge saves every know and then but he is just an average goalie. I have never understood why people think he is a top 3 goalie.. If he was on any other team he would never even make the playoffs with how average he is in the regular season.

"Any other team"

When Quick took over the Kings they had just finished the prior season in 29th place. In 2012 they finished 8th in the west, 13th in the league. In 2014 they finished 6th in the west, 10th in the league.

For 7 years the guy has been the most consistent player on the team. Everyone in this thread who follows the team is pointing at the other 18 guys on the ice as the problem, and they have been for years. Any other goalie and LA doesn't make the playoffs in 2012, and doesn't win 3 game 7s in 2014.

 

[BusQuets]

Not in the Rinne/Rask/Lundqvist elite tier at all and not even the next tier of goalies Price/Varlamov/Bob. Quick is pretty average goalie who is a prime example when player is overrated due to a hot streak in the playoffs.

 

[Cult of Hynes]

Although I agree with your general thesis, Roy's regular seasons were far better than Quick's (to date).

No they weren't. Quick's best season to date was the season in 2011-2012. That is comparable to the best seasons Roy put up. In that season Quick had 10 shut outs, more than Roy put up in a single season (1 more shut out). Quick had a save percentage of .929, .004 points better than anything Roy put up in his career in the regular season. Quick put up a 1.95 GAA which is .01 more than Roy's best single season GAA (1.94). Look at their stats. Their regular season stats are actually pretty similar. So like I said, no, Roy's regular seasons were not far better than Quicks (to date).

Roy put up some "average" numbers on some stacked Colorado teams. It happens. Quick getting crap about it is pretty funny to me when Hall of Fame players have done the same thing.

Giving a goalie an "overrated" status based on him being called clutch, when he proves he is clutch, is also funny.

Quick makes huge saves every know and then but he is just an average goalie. I have never understood why people think he is a top 3 goalie.. If he was on any other team he would never even make the playoffs with how average he is in the regular season.

Yet he was one of the main reasons the Kings made it to the playoffs in 2011-2012 and won a conn smyth because of how well he played in the playoffs. Sorry, an average goalie doesnt do either of those things.

I think Quick is a giant baby and an embellishing cheat of a player, but he is also one of the best goalies in the league.

You cant understand why he is called a top 3 goalie? Probably because he is and he has two cup rings and a conn smyth to prove that? he also gives the team a chance to win and can steal games when the team is flat?

 

[THE HOFF]

Quick makes huge saves every know and then but he is just an average goalie. I have never understood why people think he is a top 3 goalie.. If he was on any other team he would never even make the playoffs with how average he is in the regular season.

I don't know about top 3 or 5 or 10 , but Its crazy how people make it sound like Gms would look the other way if he was available.

rank him where you want if you think he hasn't been good enough during reg.season ... but he's made it to the playoffs ... and has clutched them. that's a fact, anything else is BS.

and I strongly disagree with your last sentence, ie: im sure pens fans would all have an hockeygasm if they had him between the pipes instead of fleury.