Joe Thornton: Why was he traded in his prime?

[Alwalys]

yeah, what?

A couple presidents trophies and being a perrennial playoff team expected to win at least a round isn't a good supporting cast?

sharks only had one presidents trophy. the advent of crosby and malkin in a capped league is a huge difference from what thornton was dealing with.

people seem to forget that the key to boston's only cup in the era was tim thomas. so if thornton had an effect on that it's a butterfly type effect that caused boston to bring thomas to the big club.

if thornton was on that team in front of thomas, they would have won the cup just the same and probably looked better doing it.

as for when thornton was playing his best hockey, that's hard to say. clearly putting up back to back >90 assist seasons has to be a candidate but he did spend a couple of years later in his career playing as one of the top (statistic case for the top) 2-way centers in the entire league.

thornton has dominated bergeron throughout their time in the league together, one of the few centers that can claim that.

 

[Regal]

sharks only had one presidents trophy. the advent of crosby and malkin in a capped league is a huge difference from what thornton was dealing with.

people seem to forget that the key to boston's only cup in the era was tim thomas. so if thornton had an effect on that it's a butterfly type effect that caused boston to bring thomas to the big club.

if thornton was on that team in front of thomas, they would have won the cup just the same and probably looked better doing it.

as for when thornton was playing his best hockey, that's hard to say. clearly putting up back to back >90 assist seasons has to be a candidate but he did spend a couple of years later in his career playing as one of the top (statistic case for the top) 2-way centers in the entire league.

thornton has dominated bergeron throughout their time in the league together, one of the few centers that can claim that.

I wish we had numbers for 05-06 and 06-07. I have a feeling Thornton's possession and GF% numbers were just as dominant, at least in '06. It felt like he always had the puck

 

[Talks to Goalposts]

I wish we had numbers for 05-06 and 06-07. I have a feeling Thornton's possession and GF% numbers were just as dominant, at least in '06. It felt like he always had the puck

Straight 5 on 5, Joe Thornton is +166 since 2007-08, which misses two of his best seasons (he was +31 and +24 as well those years, so likely was a massive force), being 59.15% in goal differential. Pretty much the same as Crosby/Datsyuk/Sedins. The guy really was incredible.

 

[Big Phil]

I don't think Kessel is quite the player he was when he was top-10 in points three seasons in a row for Toronto (the only player in the league who was), but back then, I think if he's a team's best forward they could win the cup.

Obviously not if it's a Leafs-like situation where he's their best player on the entire roster by an embarrassingly wide margin, but if it's a situation where he's the top forward, and the team has an elite defenseman and an elite goalie, he could be the 3rd, or maybe even 2nd, most important part of a cup winning team.

The Pittsburgh situation is, for the most part, proving that, although in a different way. He's currently their 3rd best player AND their 3rd best forward... strange way to build a team but it's working so far.

I don't know if Kessel has declined yet. He won't be 30 until later this year. I think he is as good as when he was in Toronto, not really a difference I don't think. But I disagree that a team is in good shape if he is their best forward. There are a lot of players in NHL history - even very good ones - who you would never feel totally comfortable if they were your best guy. Kessel does what he does, and what he does is pretty good. He has a wicked shot, good wheels and he shoots the puck a lot. He's not taking faceoffs, he isn't strong defensively but he is a guy that if you have him focus on that stuff you'll be okay, so long as there are other players on the team more well rounded. I was always less critical of Kessel when he was a Leaf than everyone else because I never thought it was fair the pressure they put on him to basically carry the team. Thornton on the other hand, he is a guy you knew you could build around right from the get go.

Some good points.

Bruins definitely wanted Thornton to be a tough, 2-way center. Fight and score goals. Joe tried. In his 4th season he had 37 goals, 34 assists and 107 PIM. That was what the Bruins wanted.

But after Lindros broke Joe's face, he appeared to give up trying to be that player. He got lazy too. Though he scored 32 points in 23 games for Boston, that was the season where everyone started out getting 8-10 power players a night because of the tightening of the rules. Hw was 11th in the league at that point and really wasn't playing hard. I think most Bruins fans knew he'd go to San Jose with something to prove and he did. No surprise that was the best season of his career.

He had over 90 assists in back to back years. You really can't buy that sort of production. He turned Jonathan Cheechoo into a Rocket Richard winner. Even in Boston Glen Murray had his big years thanks to Thornton. Murray was 6'3" 220lbs. Not a bad choice for a guy to be another "Neely" if that's what they were looking for. I really don't think you'd be utilizing Thornton as well if you wanted him in the Neely role. Granted Thornton could have stepped it up a notch in the playoffs, which Neely did, but it doesn't mean he didn't have more value than him overall. Only Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr and Oates had at least two 90 assist seasons. Those 4 players are the only other ones who ever had more assists in a season than him. I'm not sure you could get a lot more than that.

How much do you think the '04 playoff loss to Montreal played a role in the trade?

Like, let's say Boston doesn't blow that series, they have a good second round showing vs. the Flyers and lose in 6 games, Thornton's a bit healthier and doesn't go pointless.

Do they still make the trade without that defining moment of a pointless series with the bad ribs and all?

I think we should all have our ribs in the shape that Thornton's were in and try doing everyday things like breathing. Heck, God help you if you sneeze or cough. Let alone play a high stakes physical game with grown men. At the end of the day there is lots to criticize Thornton when it comes to his playoff resume as he has had two decades and pretty good teams to show that he can carry a team to glory, and he hasn't. However, I say criticize that, not 2004. It is very clear why he laid an egg in 2004. He probably shouldn't have been playing. If he had other good postseasons to counter this we'd forget about it, but he really hasn't.

 

[Evincar]

Boston has a cup, Thornton and San Jose doesn't.

That's the single most important thing here. A good player doesn't equal a good team.

What does the Cup have to do anything? Maybe Boston would have more Cups if they actually got something in return for trading a star player. They clearly didnt learn because they did the same thing when they traded Seguin.

 

[Fenway]

What does the Cup have to do anything? Maybe Boston would have more Cups if they actually got something in return for trading a star player. They clearly didnt learn because they did the same thing when they traded Seguin.

The Bruins are owned by Jeremy and Margaret Jacobs and they are actually separate from family owned Delaware North.

I have been told by several people who work for the Bruins that if Margaret is not happy with a players deportment off the ice that player will be moved as Jeremy will abide by his wife's wishes.

I know her input was a major reason Seguin was shipped out and she may have played a factor with Thornton.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

And the other reached the finals, with the actual player involved in the trade.

Boston could have probably won multiple cups if they kept Thornton over Savard.

More likely they win none. Just like the Sharks.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Straight 5 on 5, Joe Thornton is +166 since 2007-08, which misses two of his best seasons (he was +31 and +24 as well those years, so likely was a massive force), being 59.15% in goal differential. Pretty much the same as Crosby/Datsyuk/Sedins. The guy really was incredible.

Since 2007-2008:

Thornton +126 regular season -14 Playoffs

Bergeron +154 reular season +26 playoffs

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

The Bruins are owned by Jeremy and Margaret Jacobs and they are actually separate from family owned Delaware North.

I have been told by several people who work for the Bruins that if Margaret is not happy with a players deportment off the ice that player will be moved as Jeremy will abide by his wife's wishes.

I know her input was a major reason Seguin was shipped out and she may have played a factor with Thornton.

Agree about Seguin, but trading Thornton seemed much more like a knee-jerk reaction.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

More likely they win none. Just like the Sharks.

It's clear by this post and the following ones that you have no intention of being objective with this subject.

Thornton is/was miles better than Savard ever was at everything. If you don't think the Bruins are more successful with the same line up except swapping Thornton for Savard then we're done here.

 

[Talks to Goalposts]

Since 2007-2008:

Thornton +126 regular season -14 Playoffs

Bergeron +154 reular season +26 playoffs

Bergeron is also a superstar. They could have easily had both as well as Chara.

 

[bearcountry17]

Bergeron is also a superstar. They could have easily had both as well as Chara.

Who knows, maybe they trade Krejci for help elsewhere and they miss out on him leading the playoffs in scoring twice on 2 trips to the finals. I don't blame other people for thinking "what if" but on the other hand how could anyone blame Bruins fans for not wanting to disrupt a core that won the Stanley Cup for the 1st time in 4 decades.

 

[Jets4Life]

The Bruins are owned by Jeremy and Margaret Jacobs and they are actually separate from family owned Delaware North.

I have been told by several people who work for the Bruins that if Margaret is not happy with a players deportment off the ice that player will be moved as Jeremy will abide by his wife's wishes.

I know her input was a major reason Seguin was shipped out and she may have played a factor with Thornton.

I guess we will not be seeing either Kane player in a Bruins jersey anytime soon.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Thornton is a player with a bit of a Pierre Turgeon pedigree. The universe works in weird ways. I think in isolation it seems like a bad trade, though people nowadays tend to ignore that Brad Stuart was viewed as a potential very good #1.

In any event, Stuart did end up being a more than capable top 4 Dman while Sturm remained a very solid secondary scoring option.

More importantly though, it's quite possible that if the Bruins had kept Thornton and built around him they never win the Cup. Simply because of how his presence would have affected other choices. But one will never know.

 

[Regal]

It's clear by this post and the following ones that you have no intention of being objective with this subject.

Thornton is/was miles better than Savard ever was at everything. If you don't think the Bruins are more successful with the same line up except swapping Thornton for Savard then we're done here.

With the cap it's not as simple as swapping one for the other though. There was a 3 million dollar difference in their cap hits the year the Bruins won, and if I remember correctly they were right up on the cap, and had to use the overages from Savard being on LTIR to pick up Peverley and Kelly, who were both big contributors to the cup win. Also, as mentioned, Krejci might not have had the opportunity to play the role he did with Thornton on the roster, And while Thornton's the better player, Krejci was probably better that playoffs than any of Thornton's runs.

 

[Jets4Life]

With the cap it's not as simple as swapping one for the other though. There was a 3 million dollar difference in their cap hits the year the Bruins won, and if I remember correctly they were right up on the cap, and had to use the overages from Savard being on LTIR to pick up Peverley and Kelly, who were both big contributors to the cup win. Also, as mentioned, Krejci might not have had the opportunity to play the role he did with Thornton on the roster, And while Thornton's the better player, Krejci was probably better that playoffs than any of Thornton's runs.

I truly do not understand the salary cap argument to justify the trade or to explain it away. Believe it or not, there are Washington Capitals fans that are making the same argument in regards to the Forsberg-Erat trade. The main goal of any organization is to have the best players available. Guys like Thornton don't come along every day, and if salary cap is a concern, then just open up space by moving lesser talented players. (See: Blackhawks, Chicago 2010-17)

 

[Regal]

I truly do not understand the salary cap argument to justify the trade or to explain it away. Believe it or not, there are Washington Capitals fans that are making the same argument in regards to the Forsberg-Erat trade. The main goal of any organization is to have the best players available. Guys like Thornton don't come along every day, and if salary cap is a concern, then just open up space by moving lesser talented players. (See: Blackhawks, Chicago 2010-17)

In a basic sense if you have to create a roster going into the year, I agree, but it's different when you're looking back in hindsight at a team that actually won. We simply can't know how things would have played out if they had Thornton but less depth due to the cap. A team being better on paper doesn't mean it still wins just the same.

Also, I'm not using it to justify the trade. I've been very clear that it was not a good trade. I've simply said that it's possible that trading him away was the right move, but if so, they still should have got much more for him. And in this post I was only addressing the poster I quoted's comment that replacing Savard with Thornton would have only made them better.

 

[dabid]

I'm over the Thornton trade because they won the cup 6 years later and like TheMoreYouKnow said about his presence would affect different choices etc.

With that said, I don't care if he was caught by the Bruins organization kicking innocent puppies in his spare time. You don't go all kneejerk and trade him for a package featuring Wayne Primeau without informing other teams that he's available.

 

[Fenway]

I'm over the Thornton trade because they won the cup 6 years later and like TheMoreYouKnow said about his presence would affect different choices etc.

With that said, I don't care if he was caught by the Bruins organization kicking innocent puppies in his spare time. You don't go all kneejerk and trade him for a package featuring Wayne Primeau without informing other teams that he's available.

I could make a case that the fallout from the Thornton trade paved Sinden and O'Connell to be shown the door and Peter Chiarelli being hired. 2007 was rock bottom with Dave Lewis but New Jersey fired Julien and Chia pounced. The Bruins could have won another Cup in that window but at least claimed one.

The December 1, 2005 interview that WEEI's Glenn Ordway had with Jeremy Jacobs needs to be found. Jacobs had not spoken to Boston media in 30 years as he always deferred to Sinden and for most Bruins fans it was the first time we had ever heard his voice. The Bruins really screwed up in their strategy after the lost season and Jacobs was angry as he accepted bad advise from Sinden and O'Connell.

I think history will show that trading Seguin will have a more lasting impact on the Bruins.

 

[SatanwasaSlovak]

Some players just don't fit into the team and it's addition by subtraction even though a player is highly talented.

There's more to a game than having talented players.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

It's clear by this post and the following ones that you have no intention of being objective with this subject.

Thornton is/was miles better than Savard ever was at everything. If you don't think the Bruins are more successful with the same line up except swapping Thornton for Savard then we're done here.

I'll miss you.

As a Bruins fan from long before Joe Thornton's arrival, I'm being as objective as I can be.

You can't replace Savard with Thornton on the Cup winning team of 2011. Savard didn't play in the playoffs for that team. His career was ended after 25 games that season.

In my opinion, if Savard or Thornton play in the 2011 playoff (dropping Krejci down to 3rd line center) the Bruins don't win.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I truly do not understand the salary cap argument to justify the trade or to explain it away. Believe it or not, there are Washington Capitals fans that are making the same argument in regards to the Forsberg-Erat trade. The main goal of any organization is to have the best players available. Guys like Thornton don't come along every day, and if salary cap is a concern, then just open up space by moving lesser talented players. (See: Blackhawks, Chicago 2010-17)

The main goal of any organization is to win.

Having the best players helps, but does not guarantee it.

 

[Alwalys]

I think we should all have our ribs in the shape that Thornton's were in and try doing everyday things like breathing. Heck, God help you if you sneeze or cough. Let alone play a high stakes physical game with grown men. At the end of the day there is lots to criticize Thornton when it comes to his playoff resume as he has had two decades and pretty good teams to show that he can carry a team to glory, and he hasn't. However, I say criticize that, not 2004. It is very clear why he laid an egg in 2004. He probably shouldn't have been playing. If he had other good postseasons to counter this we'd forget about it, but he really hasn't.

Most people don't realize he HAS had many good postseasons. In fact he is as dominant or more in the postseason as he is in the regular season. He has often put up dominant numbers in games that end up losses because the Sharks have for most of his career been deficient defensively and depthwise. In the playoffs, those areas get exploited. One could argue that his presence at the top of the roster puts some squeeze on the cap that might affect that, but other cup winners have had large salaries on the books (granted many if not most of them circumvented the cap to win the cup).

But as a team, san jose has other issues, such as being a destination that free agents pretty much do not ever consider. So they have always had to trade assets away.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It's the good old fashioned meddling owners that led to Joe Thornton being traded. Just look at that team's history with trading top young players. They did it with Jason Allison, Joe Thornton, Tyler Seguin, you could include Kyle McLaren in that grouping (another one given away to San Jose), they mishandled Joe Juneau and gave him up to rent Al Iafrate for a short term.

They have a tendency of throwing young players under the bus and those are just some examples of it, and I'm sure the Jacobs have been heavily involved (like in Allison's case where he was a hold out).

It's no different than what Ed Snider did with Philly, or Al Davis and his Raiders. They were notorious for being "hands on" owners and often overruled hockey ops.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

It's the good old fashioned meddling owners that led to Joe Thornton being traded. Just look at that team's history with trading top young players. They did it with Jason Allison, Joe Thornton, Tyler Seguin, you could include Kyle McLaren in that grouping (another one given away to San Jose), they mishandled Joe Juneau and gave him up to rent Al Iafrate for a short term.

They have a tendency of throwing young players under the bus and those are just some examples of it, and I'm sure the Jacobs have been heavily involved (like in Allison's case where he was a hold out).

It's no different than what Ed Snider did with Philly, or Al Davis and his Raiders. They were notorious for being "hands on" owners and often overruled hockey ops.

Actually, Mr. Jacobs has always been known as a "hands off" owner.