Joe Thornton: Why was he traded in his prime?

[FerrisRox]

Great story. How much of this is public? Most of it I've never heard.

None of it as far as I know. It's fairly well known within the hockey community, but I've never seen it in the public domain. I first heard the story during the Winter Olympics, but I've subsequently heard little chunks of it many times since, so it's definitely out there. The one part I am personally a little skeptical about is the "round of applause" in the dressing room portion when he walks out, though I've heard that part of the story more than any other part.

This part isn't true though. He was given an A after 9 games, and named captain in the offseason.

You are correct. The part about the laughter in the dressing room and the part about him being named captain and them being shocked to hear it were both not part of the original story I was told at the Olympics. (Also the Todd Bertuzzi part was also related to me later.) Maybe they mixed up the C with the A, though honestly it seems like an extreme response to hearing he was given an A, especially considering he had worn an "A" with the Flames too.

 

[BruinsBtn]

At the end of the day, it was a snap decision after a lot of lead up...my recollection of it, that I am not fact checking right away, but I think I recall the jist of it...

Obviously all lead up, the cop, the 04 playoffs, even being beaten out of his power forward game, that's all there...the Bruins played the Devils on what some would call national TV that night (OLN, now NBCSN)...I think it was 11/26/05 or thereabouts...there's less than a minute left in a tie game, John Madden beats Thornton clean on a faceoff in JT's defensive zone...the puck goes back to Rafalski (?) and gets snapped right into the net...Bruins lose. Bruins management snaps, they start calling anyone that ever asked about Thornton and make a deal out of anger...they get not **** for him at 11 pm one weekday night...they call Joe and tell him at dinner he has been traded...the next day, about half of the league's GMs say "boy...had I known he was available, I would have given up way more for him..."

This is partly true. I remember watching that game and at the end of it going: "Thornton's got to go".

As for the OP: The guy was a gigantic playoff disappointment in Boston.

 

[Terry Yake]

they wanted to build around bergeron?

i think his lousy performance in the 04 playoffs had alot to do with it. the dismal return boston got is still mindblowing. it's like they forgot he had put up a 100 pt season just two seasons earlier and had established himself as one of the games top C's

it's hard to believe they couldn't have gotten anything better in return. which makes it clear they boston just wanted to get rid of him as soon as possible and took the first offer they received.

then 8 years later they do the same thing with seguin

 

[FerrisRox]

You may want to Google the Conroy incident too. I'd rather not get into it here.

Quite familiar with it... I'm pretty sure it's not true though.

 

[Skobel24]

This was the most shocking part. Not that he got traded, but what the return was. It's hard to imagine that any one of us or someone off the street couldn't have gotten more in return if we were GM.

It's still the worst trade I've ever seen in the NHL, no matter what the Bruins went on to do a few years later.

I would have ****ing killed to get him to Calgary to center Iginla.

 

[Jets4Life]

This is partly true. I remember watching that game and at the end of it going: "Thornton's got to go".

As for the OP: The guy was a gigantic playoff disappointment in Boston.

Maybe I am wrong but was there not issues with Kessel too during his time in Boston? He became a clutch playoff performer, when he had the right supporting cast in Pittsburgh. Although I'm pretty sure it was other issues that led to Kessel's departure from Boston. Weird how Boston trades away star players like yesterday's news.

 

[BruinsBtn]

Maybe I am wrong but was there not issues with Kessel too during his time in Boston? He became a clutch playoff performer, when he had the right supporting cast in Pittsburgh. Maybe Joe needs the same thing.

Uhhhhhhh, what?

 

[seventieslord]

Uhhhhhhh, what?

yeah, what?

A couple presidents trophies and being a perrennial playoff team expected to win at least a round isn't a good supporting cast?

 

[Jets4Life]

yeah, what?

A couple presidents trophies and being a perrennial playoff team expected to win at least a round isn't a good supporting cast?

My apologies. Brain cramp. I realized what I had wrote without thinking, and edited it. Insomnia does that to me...

 

[hohosaregood]

The Sharks never really had all that much depth per se. Good top end but the bottom half cratered.

 

[617Marine]

Maybe I am wrong but was there not issues with Kessel too during his time in Boston? He became a clutch playoff performer, when he had the right supporting cast in Pittsburgh. Although I'm pretty sure it was other issues that led to Kessel's departure from Boston. Weird how Boston trades away star players like yesterday's news.

Without getting too far off thread, Kessel in Boston was a young kid with an enormous amount of talent, in a sports crazy market, and it was apparent that he just kind of wanted to play hockey with the amount of skill he had. I think management wanted him to reach a higher level and he was comfortable where he was. With that being the case, I don't think the Bruins wanted to invest long term in him, thus, the trade with Toronto. I think he's thriving in Pittsburgh because Crosby and Malkin are the superstars who take most of the praise/heat on a given night, and Kessel kind of just does his thing.

I think Thornton is also in the similar mold. He's just a laid back guy and didn't gel with the market and the enormous pressure. As mentioned, there are other elements-like playoff performance-that factored into the trade. Also of note is that the Bruins franchise in 05-06 was a dumpster fire. O'Connell and company completely misread the post-lockout NHL, and stumbled into the 05-06 season with a team and organization that had no idea what it was doing.

The trade was bad, no doubt, but it also was kind of a reset button for the franchise.

 

[c9777666]

the Bruins franchise in 05-06 was a dumpster fire. O'Connell and company completely misread the post-lockout NHL, and stumbled into the 05-06 season with a team and organization that had no idea what it was doing.

Boston didn't exactly do a great job in finding players for Thornton in the leadup to 2005.

While other teams were making moves with big implications (Oilers trade for Pronger, Ducks sign Scott Niedermayer, Hossa/Heatley trade), what was Boston's big move?

Sign two aging guys (Leetch/Zhamnov) and failed attempts to land Mike Modano/Peter Forsberg

Make zero effort to resign Mike Knuble/Brian Rolston (whom played roles in making 3 straight playoff appearances from 2002-2004) or 2004 deadline acquisitions Sergei Gonchar/Michael Nylander.

 

[Regal]

I think Boston undoubtably became a better team with Chara/Savard, and that doesn't happen with Joe on the roster.

Doesn't make it a good trade - it was a horrible one - but moving out that contract and bringing in those new players set the Bruins on course for a Cup.

Savard had a 5 million cap hit at the time while Joe had a 6.666667 million hit. They could likely have still made it work with Thornton on the roster instead.

 

[617Marine]

Boston didn't exactly do a great job in finding players for Thornton in the leadup to 2005.

While other teams were making moves with big implications (Oilers trade for Pronger, Ducks sign Scott Niedermayer, Hossa/Heatley trade), what was Boston's big move?

Sign two aging guys (Leetch/Zhamnov) and failed attempts to land Mike Modano/Peter Forsberg

Make zero effort to resign Mike Knuble/Brian Rolston (whom played roles in making 3 straight playoff appearances from 2002-2004) or 2004 deadline acquisitions Sergei Gonchar/Michael Nylander.

I agree with that statement completely. From the 01 season up to getting eliminated by Montreal in 04, the Bruins were in decent shape, they just couldn't get out of the first round. Once the new CBA took hold though, you hit the nail on the head. They completely mismanaged the future of the team.

That's not on Thornton at all.

 

[617Marine]

Savard had a 5 million cap hit at the time while Joe had a 6.666667 million hit. They could likely have still made it work with Thornton on the roster instead.

The salary cap was $44mill for 2006-07. Thornton, Savard, and Chara all signed wouldve eaten up 43% of the Bruins cap.

Thornton's contract was just for three years, and then his hit went up to 7.2/year.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl-salary-cap-hits-44-million-1.581189

 

[Regal]

The salary cap was $44mill for 2006-07. Thornton, Savard, and Chara all signed wouldve eaten up 43% of the Bruins cap.

Thornton's contract was just for three years, and then his hit went up to 7.2/year.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl-salary-cap-hits-44-million-1.581189

I meant that they wouldn't sign Savard if they kept Thornton, who was the better player for only 1.6 million more. Savard was inconsequential to the cup, since he was out with concussion problems. The real issue is if they could have signed Chara with Thornton still on the roster. I dont think its a stretch that they could have made it work and been a better team under that contract. The big difference in their subsequent contracts means the team might have been negativelu affected, so its impossible to say what would have happened, but I think the idea that Thornton would have prevented the Chara signing is a myth Bruins fans use to make the trade more palatable, just as someone mentioned Caps fans like to say the Erat/Forsberg deal was necessary to oust McPhee.

 

[617Marine]

I meant that they wouldn't sign Savard if they kept Thornton, who was the better player for only 1.6 million more. Savard was inconsequential to the cup, since he was out with concussion problems. The real issue is if they could have signed Chara with Thornton still on the roster. I dont think its a stretch that they could have made it work and been a better team under that contract. The big difference in their subsequent contracts means the team might have been negativelu affected, so its impossible to say what would have happened, but I think the idea that Thornton would have prevented the Chara signing is a myth Bruins fans use to make the trade more palatable, just as someone mentioned Caps fans like to say the Erat/Forsberg deal was necessary to oust McPhee.

That's a fair assessment.

At the end of the day, things between Thornton and the Bruins circa 2005 were tense. So much happened with the Bruins between November '05 and October '07 that it's not entirely fair to try and say who ended up on the better end of the trade. That's not to say that SJ didn't make out like bandits in the trade, because they absolutely got the better end of that deal. But in the 11 1/2 years since the trade, one of the franchises added a Stanley Cup.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Man that Phaneuf post is golden to read right now, after that superb penalty he just took in Game 7 of the 2017 EC Finals.

 

[Regal]

That's a fair assessment.

At the end of the day, things between Thornton and the Bruins circa 2005 were tense. So much happened with the Bruins between November '05 and October '07 that it's not entirely fair to try and say who ended up on the better end of the trade. That's not to say that SJ didn't make out like bandits in the trade, because they absolutely got the better end of that deal. But in the 11 1/2 years since the trade, one of the franchises added a Stanley Cup.

That's the part I suppose it's hard to know especially without being directly involved with the team. Ultimately if there's a clash of players/management sometimes there's addition by subtraction even if the player in question is better than who replaces him. I also wonder if to some degree the trade wasn't the motivation Thornton needed to reach his potential. He wasn't really lighting it up that year as it was until after. Ultimately trading him might have been the best thing, Though the return could have been better/possibly helped win more than they did

 

[Sadekuuro]

I've read that they decided that season that they wouldn't go anywhere with him leading the way, and saw Bergeron as a franchise forward who would be their "The Guy". And they were right. I only ever heard this after Bergeron had led them to a cup and another final, so maybe that was their way of justifying a horrible trade 7 years later, but in the end they would do it all over the same way. Bad trade on paper, great result.

FWIW, I actually do remember hearing the "build around Bergeron, he's the future" stuff around the time of the trade (and I'm not a Boston fan nor plugged into their media market).

 

[El Cohiba]

Anyone think his playoff rep played a role in this? Hadn't Boston bowed out earlier than expected after subpar performances from him his final years there?

 

[sr edler]

I've read that they decided that season that they wouldn't go anywhere with him leading the way, and saw Bergeron as a franchise forward who would be their "The Guy". And they were right. I only ever heard this after Bergeron had led them to a cup and another final, so maybe that was their way of justifying a horrible trade 7 years later, but in the end they would do it all over the same way. Bad trade on paper, great result.

There must be more to it than that. Why couldn't Thornton & Bergeron function as a one–two punch? Bergeron & Krejci did that. Bergeron has never been an offensive dynamo, less than Toews is, and Krejci led the playoffs in scoring twice when Boston went to the finals. According to this logic Krejci must be better for a teams success than Thornton. And, I don't know, perhaps he is? I remember specifically in 2010 in the playoffs against Philly when Krejci got hurt, the whole Boston offense collapsed.

 

[Theokritos]

Some takes from Boston, to add on what others have already said:

Boston Sports Then and Now:
"Thornton became captain of the Bruins during the 2002-03 season, a role he perhaps was not ready for, or was never quite qualified for. Thornton is a dynamic player to be sure, but never quite seemed to be captain material. (...) Thornton never delivered on those Cup dreams that Boston fans and media built up in their heads (...) Thornton was shipped off to San Jose and has been ridiculed by Boston fans ever since."

boston.com Sports:
"Somehow, it just never worked. Not the way anyone hoped, or expected. Teen angels, fanboys, and stat geeks will mourn Thornton's trade last night to the Sharks, because he was considered the franchise savior even before he was drafted in 1997, as well as the fact he put up some strong offensive numbers. Even this year, when he often appeared to be playing in a fog, for the most part disengaged and lackluster, Jumbo Joe flirted with the top 10 scorers in the game. But, at close inspection, to the trained hockey eye, there was just no there there this season with Thornton. (...) For two months, he rarely was spotted in front of the net, where the league virtually hung out a ''vacancy" sign this season, encouraging one and all to work the low slot. (...) He was content, comfortable to set up shop behind the goal line or stand along the right half-board, looking to pass, clearly steering away from heavy contact -- or the places one might expect heavy contact. (...) It was, quite frankly, puzzling to the point of disbelief. It was that level of disinterested, even disconsolate play, that led general manager Mike O'Connell to wheel Thornton out of town. It was a combination of lack of play, real gritty and committed play, and a heavy paycheck (...) We'll begin to find out today how coach Mike Sullivan sorts out who will wear the captain's ''C" left behind by Thornton. The most obvious pick would be Leetch, already more of a presence in the dressing room in two months than Thornton was in seven-plus years. (...) Boynton remains the rare breed in today's game, a guy who legitimately burns when his team loses. Also not a Thornton trait. (...) He will be remembered on Causeway Street not for what he was, or what he did, but for what he wasn't and what he failed to do. The work forever in progress now can try to get it done somewhere else."

 

[617Marine]

That's the part I suppose it's hard to know especially without being directly involved with the team. Ultimately if there's a clash of players/management sometimes there's addition by subtraction even if the player in question is better than who replaces him. I also wonder if to some degree the trade wasn't the motivation Thornton needed to reach his potential. He wasn't really lighting it up that year as it was until after. Ultimately trading him might have been the best thing, Though the return could have been better/possibly helped win more than they did

Exactly, there's only so much we as fans can know before it turns into what we think we might know.

Also, I can't help but notice the rest of your statement is, word for word, almost entirely applicable to the situation between the Bruins and Seguin. But that's another discussion.

FWIW, I actually do remember hearing the "build around Bergeron, he's the future" stuff around the time of the trade (and I'm not a Boston fan nor plugged into their media market).

I can't find a direct quote or source right now, but that was the general consensus at the time. Even in his rookie year, the Bruins knew they had found something special with Bergeron. Chara may still have the C on his sweater, but Patrice Bergeron is this franchise.

Anyone think his playoff rep played a role in this? Hadn't Boston bowed out earlier than expected after subpar performances from him his final years there?

I think it had a role. In the 7 seasons with Joe before the trade, the Bruins went to the playoffs 5 times, and got out of the first round once in 1998-99, when they lost 4-2 to Buffalo.

In 35 playoff games with the Bruins, Thornton went 6-12-18. Granted IIRC, that series in 04 he played with cracked/broken rib, he went scoreless with a -6.
In 125 playoff games with the Sharks he's 21-84-105.

There must be more to it than that. Why couldn't Thornton & Bergeron function as a one–two punch? Bergeron & Krejci did that. Bergeron has never been an offensive dynamo, less than Toews is, and Krejci led the playoffs in scoring twice when Boston went to the finals. According to this logic Krejci must be better for a teams success than Thornton. And, I don't know, perhaps he is? I remember specifically in 2010 in the playoffs against Philly when Krejci got hurt, the whole Boston offense collapsed.

Remember though, Joe Thornton is 6 years older than Bergeron. They only played on the same team for about 75-80 games, and those were the first 75-80 NHL games of Bergeron's career. Bergeron was identified as something special as an 18 year old rookie, but they weren't relying on him in his first season, I think he was the third line center that year. I don't think there's enough of a sample size to say that a Thornton-Bergeron tandem didn't/wouldn't/couldn't work.

Also, regarding Toews, he has put up more points than Bergeron, but think about the supporting cast he's had for pretty much his entire career: Kane, Sharp, Hossa, Saad, Panarin, etc...
Bergeron didn't really have that for the first few years. Krejci didn't get his shot until 07-08 (ironically IIRC, because Bergeron missed most of the season with a concussion), and then started to flourish in 08-09, also timed with the competitive run they went on for 5-6 seasons.

But yes, the big catalyst for the 2010 collapse was Krejci going down. They were decimated by injuries at that point, and an overachieving team ran out of gas.

 

[CertifiedLurker]

Without getting too far off thread, Kessel in Boston was a young kid with an enormous amount of talent, in a sports crazy market, and it was apparent that he just kind of wanted to play hockey with the amount of skill he had. I think management wanted him to reach a higher level and he was comfortable where he was. With that being the case, I don't think the Bruins wanted to invest long term in him, thus, the trade with Toronto. I think he's thriving in Pittsburgh because Crosby and Malkin are the superstars who take most of the praise/heat on a given night, and Kessel kind of just does his thing.

I think Thornton is also in the similar mold. He's just a laid back guy and didn't gel with the market and the enormous pressure. As mentioned, there are other elements-like playoff performance-that factored into the trade. Also of note is that the Bruins franchise in 05-06 was a dumpster fire. O'Connell and company completely misread the post-lockout NHL, and stumbled into the 05-06 season with a team and organization that had no idea what it was doing.

The trade was bad, no doubt, but it also was kind of a reset button for the franchise.

Pretty sure its well documented that it had less to do with Boston not wanting to keep Kessel and more to do with them not wanting to pay what he was going to get offered as an RFA.