Joe Thornton vs Leon Draisaitl. Better player?

[Regal]

Biggest difference is indeed playoffs. Thornton would very likely have managed that feat if league wide scoring had been anywhere near the level it has been lately. He generally stayed healthy and was a strong point producer until he was in his 30s.

I don't really think there is a case for Thornton given the difference in playoff performances. I do think they're very comparable regular season players. Thornton never really had a very good playoff run. Draisaitl has several excellent ones.

I think regular season production in his prime is still firmly in Draisaitl’s favour relative to the league. They have similar top 3 years or so but Draisaitl’s 7 year stretch here is already better than Thornton’s best any 7 years let alone a consistent stretch of play, and he already had more top 10 finishes. And while Big Joe aged fairly well, he only had 3 years after 30 in the top 20 in league scoring. I think even as a regular season player, Draisaitl will end up on a level between a McDavid and a Thornton.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Draisaitl is a generational talent.

Jagr rode on marios coattails

 

[GhostfaceWu]

Leon lol and it's not close.

 

[brentashton]

Can mods move this to poll section please.

Thornton: 4 NHL All Star Teams, Hart, 2010 Olympic gold, Art Ross, 1,539 points in 1,714 games, .71 ppg in postseason.

Draisaitl: Rocket, Art Ross, Lindsay, Hart, 3 NHL All Star Teams after this year, 956 points in 790 games, 1.47 ppg in postseason.

I take Thornton. Not by much. He had the toughest matchups and was still a top 5 C throughout his career.

What say you?

Thornton v Drai and you want Jumbo? We’re talking pure on ice hockey qualities right?

PPG in reg season and post are everything you need to know.

If it’s a happy guy vs a grumpy guy though, I take Joe all day.

 

[Regal]

Sure, but my point is using playoff points to compare two different eras is a flawed argument. Especially since half of Drai's playoff points involve McDavid. Without that kind of generational talent next to him I genuinely believe he'd have less playoff points, still better than Thornton? Sure, I already said that from my first post, but the whole "wide margin" argument is absurd when you readjust the era and consider who they played with.

From age 22 to 36 (his first and last year getting end of year All Star votes), he had a 0.81 PPG in the playoffs, which was 20th among 189 forwards who played at least 50 playoff games in that time period. He’s not as bad as he’s made out to be, but it’s still quite mediocre when you consider that he had a 1.08 PPG in the regular season during this time frame, which was 4th in the league among those with at least 250 games.

Draisaitl though, since 16-17 is tied for 3rd in PPG in the regular season with 1.36 PPG. But his numbers actually go up in the playoffs with a 1.48 PPG (2nd to McDavid). Granted part of that is due to more playoff games since scoring went up, but even if he just maintained his production, that’s still a wide margin over someone dropping from 4th to 20th. Meanwhile, 20th in playoff PPG among forwards since 16-17 among those with at least 40 games is Mitch Marner at 0.90. So Draisaitl is outscoring the 20th best playoff producer of his era (which Thornton was of his era), by 64%.

Thornton could improve his production by 25% and be over a point per game in this era, and Draisaitl would still be outproducing him in the playoffs by almost 50%. There’s really no way to make the numbers not be a wide gap.

 

[brentashton]

Thornton never got carried by a Generational talent.

Neither has LD. Check his production anytime CMcD has been out for injury or other.

 

[karltonian]

Thornton, once he became the Joe Thornton we are talking about, never once played an NHL game alongside a player as good as him, let alone better than him. And yet he dominated the puck the ice night in and night out even against the league's best.

Draisaitl certainly puts up points but he doesn't dominate a game the way Thornton did.

 

[Captain Controversy]

Draisaitl and is not close.
Draisaitl is Jagr Incarnate baby.

 

[McFlyingV]

Thornton, once he became the Joe Thornton we are talking about, never once played an NHL game alongside a player as good as him, let alone better than him. And yet he dominated the puck the ice night in and night out even against the league's best.

Draisaitl certainly puts up points but he doesn't dominate a game the way Thornton did.

He does. And he does it in the playoffs which Thornton never could.

 

[Esq]

This is an easy choice: Draisaitl

A harder choice would be Draisaitl vs. Datsyuk

 

[karltonian]

What revisionist history.

Joe Pavelski wasn't a scrub. Patrick Marleau wasn't a scrub. Dany Heatley might not have been Atlanta/Ottawa level Heatley, but he wasn't a scrub. At least not when he first arrived in San Jose. Tomas Hertl wasn't a scrub. I'd even argue that Jonathan Chechoo wasn't a scrub either, until he blew out his knee and could no longer keep up. Was he a product of Thornton? Yes, largely, but he was actually good for a time as well.

Thornton never had a McDavid to play with, but he wasn't with a never ending line up of bums either.

He was routinely asked to carry lesser players to spread offense through his prime & early career. He was 29 when Marleau came to his line, 30 when Heatley came to town, 32 when Pavelski ended up on his wing, and 34 when Hertl arrived. Draisaitl has been playing with the Oilers' best since the day he started in the league and McDavid since age 21.

Draisaitl and McDavid on the same team is what it would have been like with Thornton and Jagr on the same team, or Thornton and Crosby, or Thornton and Lindros.

 

[Lou Sassole]

Yep, Joe was maybe a slightly better passer but he can't compete with Leon when it comes to scoring goals.

Leon already has 399 goals to Joe's 430 but has played 900 less games.

Maybe a slightly better passer? Are people serious? Draisaitl is a better overall player, but calm the f*** down about saying he's Jumbo's equal when it comes to being a playmaker. I can't imagine how many more assists he would have if he shared the ice with McDavid.

 

[Mattb124]

Neither has LD. Check his production anytime CMcD has been out for injury or other.

Drai never benefited from playing behind McDavid? Thornton never had that benefit. Not arguing that Thornton was better than Drai, more that people post stupid stuff in the internet.

 

[SharksFan1992]

Draisaitl by a lot and I'm a Sharks fan. Plus, Draisaitl performs in the playoffs. Thornton in the playoffs was often frustrating. He refused to shoot, tries to be too pretty, and effort was lacking in important games.

 

[wetcoast]

Sure, but my point is using playoff points to compare two different eras is a flawed argument. Especially since half of Drai's playoff points involve McDavid. Without that kind of generational talent next to him I genuinely believe he'd have less playoff points, still better than Thornton? Sure, I already said that from my first post, but the whole "wide margin" argument is absurd when you readjust the era and consider who they played with.

You keep saying stuff like this almost like you actually haven't watched Draisaitl play and dismiss his production when McDavid is out.

Are you actually being serious at all in evaluating this?

Do you use the same metric for every player or is it just Draisaitl specific?

This seems like an odd comparison to me. Jumbo is one of my faves all time to the point I own multiple Thornton sweaters and loved watching him play about as much as anyone in his era. That being said, Drai is clearly the better overall player.

Thornton wasn't as bad as some think in the playoffs, but he wasn't fantastic on the whole in the postseason.

Drai on the other hand has been a great postseason player. I firmly believe he would have won the Conn Smythe had Pietrangelo not been a bitch and intentionally slashed Drai's wrist in 2023. Drai was a god among men that playoffs. On the PP that postseason Drai was as automatic as anyone I've seen in the playoffs. Thornton never was at that level. Just one example among several that point to Drai being the better player.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Thornton, once he became the Joe Thornton we are talking about, never once played an NHL game alongside a player as good as him, let alone better than him. And yet he dominated the puck the ice night in and night out even against the league's best.

Draisaitl certainly puts up points but he doesn't dominate a game the way Thornton did.

This seems a bit tainted by fanbase bias. You make it sound like Draisaitl just puts up points without actually controlling the play to generate those chances.

He plays a similar "puck protection playmaking" game as Thornton, except Draisaitl is actually a lethal goal scorer as well.

 

[karltonian]

Maybe a slightly better passer? Are people serious? Draisaitl is a better overall player, but calm the f*** down about saying he's Jumbo's equal when it comes to being a playmaker. I can't imagine how many more assists he would have if he shared the ice with McDavid.

Fun fact: Joe never played in the NHL with a [edited] concurrent 100 point player. Karlsson did it after and Heatley before; Draisaitl has played with 3 and they are all still on the team.

 

[NotAVacuumSalesman]

Fun fact: Joe never played in the NHL with a 100 point player until Karlsson, who scored 100 after Joe left.

That’s false.

He played with Dany Heatley.

 

[karltonian]

That’s false.

He played with Dany Heatley.

shit how could i forget 50 in 07? so one legit 100 point player, though past his 100 point days.

that was a great line, good enough to get a name but unfortunately neither thornton at 31 nor heatley were 100 point players when they played together. too bad that line didn't last, heatley got too injured to be very effective ever again.

 

[karltonian]

Something sort of notable is that Thornton at a certain point in his career actively evolved his game to be more defensive and saw a significant amount of defensive usage.

 

[Reindl87]

I really liked young prime Thornton. I loved him in NHL 04. I absolutely hated the bearded old version of him.He is the poster child for a guy that hurt his legacy and how people remember him post his prime.
That being said, there is just no discussion any more. Draisaitl is the better player and will end up with a much more impressive career.

 

[jfhabs]

Draisaitl quite easily.

 

[Regal]

Fun fact: Joe never played in the NHL with a [edited] concurrent 100 point player. Karlsson did it after and Heatley before; Draisaitl has played with 3 and they are all still on the team.

Who are the three? There’s McDavid and RNH, and RNH is one of the luckiest players to ever hit 100, and even in that season was never as good as Marleau or Heatley or Pavelski when they played with Thornton. Trying to suggest Draisaitl has had a lot more offensive help relative to Thornton beyond just McDavid is a bit ridiculous.

 

[Regal]

This seems a bit tainted by fanbase bias. You make it sound like Draisaitl just puts up points without actually controlling the play to generate those chances.

He plays a similar "puck protection playmaking" game as Thornton, except Draisaitl is actually a lethal goal scorer as well.

I do think Thornton was the better possession player, and his underlying numbers generally attest to that. Even in the playoffs his expected goals numbers were strong, whereas Draisaitl’s generally haven’t been away from McDavid (though he usually plays with weaker linemates when apart). At the same time, I think that’s partly how the league was at the time. We tend to see more rush chances and counter attacks today than we used to when Joe was in his prime where the cycle was king.

 

[pi314]

Drai is about as good as a playmaker as Thornton while also challenge for the Rocket each year and is a playoffs monster. I don't think it's close.

It’s Draisatl but no way he’s as good of a playmaker as Joe.

But Draisatl certainly has a big edge in terms of goal scoring and being 5x the player in the playoffs.