Joe Thornton vs Leon Draisaitl. Better player?

[majormajor]

Okay, simple question, you get to choose between McDavid or Draisaitl, who are you taking? I'll simplify, one answer will get you laughed at, and the other will prove my point that Drai will always play second fiddle, just like how Malkin was behind Crosby, Fedorov behind Yzerman, Forsberg behind Sakic, etc. Thornton never had that kind of linemate, he was for most part always seen as the top player on his team.

For the record, just in case you want to check, I still said Drai was the better player, but it's actually close between him and Thornton, not a wide margin as some ppl are claiming.

You take McDavid but Draisaitl is closer to McDavid than he is to Thornton.

 

[Romang67]

If you look at scoring relative to their contemporaries Draisaitl still comes out ahead.



Just one point behind now. That's really insane, Draisaitl is not even 30 yet and has played less than half as many playoff games as Jumbo.

Who is comparable to Draisaitl in terms of playoff scoring relative to their contemporaries? Like after Gretzky I imagine, but then who?

I checked the all time playoff points leaders and in terms of era adjusted points per game it looks like Gretzky -> Lemieux -> McDavid -> Draisaitl

That's without doing the math though if anybody wants to follow up.

By how much?

 

[SuperScript29]

Draisaitl's leading linemate by ice time is Vasili Podkolzin, not McDavid. He's usually not playing on a line with McDavid. The most common line was Podkolzin - Draisaitl - Arvidsson.

What's the percentage of points Podkolzin has contributed vs the percentage that McDavid contributed?

 

[majormajor]

What's the percentage of points Podkolzin has contributed vs the percentage that McDavid contributed?

Close to even, so if Draisaitl played that time with McDavid instead of Podkolzin and Arvidsson, his scoring would have been significantly higher.

 

[SuperScript29]

Close to even, so if Draisaitl played that time with McDavid instead of Podkolzin and Arvidsson, his scoring would have been significantly higher.

What's even? My exact question is 956 career points, how many did Podkolzin put up vs McDavid? Also pls share the source once you have that answer.

 

[majormajor]

What's even? My exact question is 956 career points, how many did Podkolzin put up vs McDavid? Also pls share the source once you have that answer.

You can have a look at the link, it's in the post you replied to.

24 5v5 points with McDavid this year and 22 with Podkolzin, who he spent more time with.

Obviously Podkolzin is new, Draisaitl has played most of his 5v5 career with a revolving cast of depth players like Foegele and Yamamoto and now Podkolzin. You can change the year in the link to see. Obviously he hasn't scored many career points with Podkolzin, he's new, and it's a revolving cast over his career, you asked a silly misleading question.

 

[Booker T]

Draisaitl is even more built for DPE. Playoff hockey with the extra hooking and holding more closely resembles DPE, and Draisaitl is an all-timer in playoff performance.

There is no scenario today that looks like the DPE. The closest would have been 2014.

 

[SuperScript29]

You can have a look at the link, it's in the post you replied to.

24 5v5 points with McDavid this year and 22 with Podkolzin, who he spent more time with.

Obviously Podkolzin is new, Draisaitl has played most of his 5v5 career with a revolving cast of depth players like Foegele and Yamamoto and now Podkolzin. You can change the year in the link to see. Obviously he hasn't scored many career points with Podkolzin, he's new, and it's a revolving cast over his career, you asked a silly misleading question.

In other words, this argument doesn't mean much.

 

[majormajor]

There is no scenario today that looks like the DPE. The closest would have been 2014.

It's not the same as DPE but playoff hockey is in that direction in terms of the amount of interference, and hooks and holds that are allowed. If Draisaitl is better in playoff hockey relative to his peers than he is in the regular season, then it suggests he would be exceptionally good relative to his peers in the DPE.

 

[majormajor]

In other words, this argument doesn't mean much.

No, it blows up your argument. You try to imply Draisaitl has spent the most of his career as McDavid's linemate, he hasn't. He's had significantly worse linemates than McDavid, and worse than Mackinnon and Kucherov and Crosby and all of the other comparable players from this era.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Thornton was better at his peak, than people are claiming in here - but the answer is still Drai

 

[SuperScript29]

No, it blows up your argument. You try to imply Draisaitl has spent the most of his career as McDavid's linemate, he hasn't. He's had significantly worse linemates than McDavid, and worse than Mackinnon and Kucherov and Crosby and all of the other comparable players from this era.

Also you narrowed that search to 5v5, a better picture would be all scenarios. Afterall I'm sure these guys spend a good chunk together on special teams. Which goes back to my argument, McDavid's offensive success has a lot to do with the output Drai is putting up, lets not kid ourselves here and believe the same output would take place over a career with the likes of Podkolzin and Arvidsson.

 

[Frank Drebin]

HF posters brains cant compute that you can have the best player and the second best player in a generation on the same team, at the same time.

 

[Video Nasty]

exactly, I'd like to see the era-adjusted stats

Scoring being perhaps half a goal lower per team for a few seasons doesn’t come close to making up a 100% difference in production.

Era adjusted stats won’t do anything for a series like when Thornton went pointless in 7 games in 2004.

In short, there’s nothing interesting to be gleaned from such an exercise.

 

[Romang67]

HF posters brains cant compute that you can have the best player and the second best player in a generation on the same team, at the same time.

Why would pointing out that Draisaitl's production likely has been boosted by playing with McDavid indicate an inability to understand that?

We have plenty of examples through history of what happens with players, even great ones, when they play with a generational player.

 

[unicornpig]

Draisaitl is even more built for DPE. Playoff hockey with the extra hooking and holding more closely resembles DPE, and Draisaitl is an all-timer in playoff performance.




The popular memory has been very unfair to Cheechoo and overly inflates Thornton's abilities as a result. Cheechoo scored 28 goals the year before Thornton arrived, the leg injuries ruined what would have been a longer career for Cheechoo.



Draisaitl's leading linemate by ice time is Vasili Podkolzin, not McDavid. He's usually not playing on a line with McDavid. The most common line was Podkolzin - Draisaitl - Arvidsson.

41 percent of his playoff time is with mcdavid..............................................

 

[Frank Drebin]

Why would pointing out that Draisaitl's production likely has been boosted by playing with McDavid indicate an inability to understand that?

Does it affect your ability to understand Draisatl is the second best player of this generation? If not, then the comment wasn't directed at you.

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

I'll take jumbo Joe. He makes players around him better and didn't just cherry pick at the goal line waiting for a pass.

 

[Romang67]

Does it affect your ability to understand Draisatl is the second best player of this generation? If not, then the comment wasn't directed at you.

What a weird question.

Whether Draisaitl's production has been boosted by his playing with McDavid would certainly influence whether I think he's the second best player of his generation, yes. Especially if much of the argument comes down to his point production in comparison to players like Kucherov.

 

[Bourque]

... Including team achievements in a player's personal accolades has never made sense to me.

This explains extremely well why most of the player comparisons on the main board make absolutely no sense at all. I'm not a Habs fan. McDavid, OV, Drai > Every Habs player ever

 

[BoHorvat 53]

This is Draisaitl by far - Draisaitl has over 100 points in the last 6 full seasons ('20-'21 season was shortened otherwise it would be 7 since he had a ridiculous 84 points in 56 games). Jumbo Joe played in a different era for sure, but it's hard to overlook that feat - it's very impressive. In those same 6 years, he's scored 50+ 4 times.

The biggest difference is playoff performance. Draisaitl is one of the guys of this generation that elevates his game to a different level come playoff time. McDavid is the best player in the world, but come playoff time it's 1A/1B between him and Drai - they're both on the same level imo. The ironic part of this all in reading this today is Draisaitl has 133 points to Thornton's 134 in the playoffs - essentially has matched his playoff point total, except Draisaitl did it in 97 less games (!!!).

Draisaitl by far, give me the guy who's game elevates as the stage gets larger over the guy who is probably the biggest playoff disappointment in league history.

 

[Romang67]

This is Draisaitl by far - Draisaitl has over 100 points in the last 6 full seasons ('20-'21 season was shortened otherwise it would be 7 since he had a ridiculous 84 points in 56 games). Jumbo Joe played in a different era for sure, but it's hard to overlook that feat - it's very impressive. In those same 6 years, he's scored 50+ 4 times.

The biggest difference is playoff performance. Draisaitl is one of the guys of this generation that elevates his game to a different level come playoff time. McDavid is the best player in the world, but come playoff time it's 1A/1B between him and Drai - they're both on the same level imo. The ironic part of this all in reading this today is Draisaitl has 133 points to Thornton's 134 in the playoffs - essentially has matched his playoff point total, except Draisaitl did it in 97 less games (!!!).

Draisaitl by far, give me the guy who's game elevates as the stage gets larger over the guy who is probably the biggest playoff disappointment in league history.

Biggest difference is indeed playoffs. Thornton would very likely have managed that feat if league wide scoring had been anywhere near the level it has been lately. He generally stayed healthy and was a strong point producer until he was in his 30s.

I don't really think there is a case for Thornton given the difference in playoff performances. I do think they're very comparable regular season players. Thornton never really had a very good playoff run. Draisaitl has several excellent ones.

 

[SuperScript29]

Scoring being perhaps half a goal lower per team for a few seasons doesn’t come close to making up a 100% difference in production.

Era adjusted stats won’t do anything for a series like when Thornton went pointless in 7 games in 2004.

In short, there’s nothing interesting to be gleaned from such an exercise.

Seriously, did you actually watch hockey back in those days? It was a completely different era. Playoff hockey prior to the 2005 lockout felt like going to war. The game has changed significantly to favor the skill/speed, back in those days it favored the bigger/physical players.

 

[majormajor]

Also you narrowed that search to 5v5, a better picture would be all scenarios. Afterall I'm sure these guys spend a good chunk together on special teams. Which goes back to my argument, McDavid's offensive success has a lot to do with the output Drai is putting up, lets not kid ourselves here and believe the same output would take place over a career with the likes of Podkolzin and Arvidsson.

No one is saying Draisaitl hasn't benefited from his time McDavid.

I'm saying Draisaitl would have scored significantly more if he played his regular 5v5 shift with McDavid instead of the revolving cast of Podkolzin / Yamamoto type linemates. That isn't really debatable.

You started the discussion by saying that Thornton's linemates like Marleau and Heatley are an unfair comparison group for Draisaitl because Draisaitl plays with McDavid. But Draisaitl's regular 5v5 linemates are far worse than Marleau and Heatley, often just waiver fodder guys.

It's really more like

Huge benefit
the minutes Draisaitl plays with McDavid (sure all situations)

Very big benefit
the minutes Kuch plays with Guentzel and Point, or Mackinnon with Rantanen or Crosby with Guentzel, or Thornton with Heatley and Marleau.

Big detriment
the minutes Draisaitl plays carrying Yamamoto / Podkolzin / insert waiver players.

So Draisaitl has one advantage and one disadvantage relative to most star players like Thornton, you really can't say that he is unfairly advantage overall because of McDavid, you have to look at his regular 5v5 linemates.

41 percent of his playoff time is with mcdavid..............................................

Yes, I shared the link showing their ice time together. 41% indicates that they are not normally linemates, something many people here still haven't figured out.....................................

 

[Spawn]

I think regular season is close, but I’d give the edge to Draisaitl.

Thornton was a better pure playmaker, but not by enough of a gap to make up for how much better Draisaitl is as a goal scorer. It’s not like Draisaitl isn’t also an elite playmaker.

But once you factor in the playoffs, that edge becomes a fathom.