Joe Thornton vs Leon Draisaitl. Better player?

[sooni]

Both are still out of Cup so i will go with Patrick Maroon.

 

[WillardJFredricks]

Draisaitl by a very wide margin

Yeah, how is this even a comparison?

 

[McFlash97]

Draisaitl is levels better than Thornton

 

[Frank Drebin]

We have plenty of examples through history of what happens with players, even great ones, when they play with a generational player.

Such as?

 

[Romang67]

Such as?

Great players who played with generational players?

Take your pick from the list of teammates of any top 10 player in NHL history.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Esa Tikkanen? Paul Coffey?

Paul Coffey is one of the best NHL defensemen ever. Won the Norris with two different teams, a decade apart

Esa Tikkanen never won a scoring title, won a richard trophy, won a Lindsay, won a Hart. Never been a top 5 candidate for said awards multiple times like Draisatl has.

I need to see an example of another player who was propped to greatness by another in the same way that Draisatl apparently has. Should be easy too, since it apparently happens all the time.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Great players who played with generational players?

Take your pick from the list of teammates of any top 10 player in NHL history.

No, you provide the examples. Show me the teammates elevated to hart trophies. Art Ross trophies. Lindsay Trophies. Richard Awards. Perennial top 5 scoring finishes.

 

[Video Nasty]

Seriously, did you actually watch hockey back in those days? It was a completely different era. Playoff hockey prior to the 2005 lockout felt like going to war. The game has changed significantly to favor the skill/speed, back in those days it favored the bigger/physical players.

I did.

None of that is going to explain why there is a 100% difference in the point totals they’ve amassed.

Going to war? You sure the main difference isn’t simply not being a kid now?

 

[Romang67]

No, you provide the examples. Show me the teammates elevated to hart trophies. Art Ross trophies. Lindsay Trophies. Richard Awards. Perennial top 5 scoring finishes.

Why would I show examples of things I never claimed happened?

Here is the first part of my quote that you cut off, that I assumed you read before cutting it out of your quote:

Why would pointing out that Draisaitl's production likely has been boosted by playing with McDavid indicate an inability to understand that?

If you want to argue against strawmen, you feel free to do so. Don't expect me to entertain you by playing along. I have better things to do with my time. If you want to "win" a discussion you're only pretending to have in your head, I recommend investing in a diary.

Do you actually want examples of players who, as I claimed, increased their production when playing with generational players? Coffey, Kurri, Rob Brown, Hyman are some examples.

 

[Regal]

Joe Thornton was built for DPE hockey, 6' 4" ~ 220lbs, whereas Leon Draisaitl is built for today's fast paced game. Thornton would do better than Leon in the DPE, whereas Leon would do better than Thornton in today's fast paced game.

I don’t know if Draisaitl would be any worse in the DPE. He’s huge and protects the puck well, while having elite vision and passing ability. All the things that made Thornton great. He just also is a better skater who can also excel on the rush.

 

[McFlyingV]

I don’t know if Draisaitl would be any worse in the DPE. He’s huge and protects the puck well, while having elite vision and passing ability. All the things that made Thornton great. He just also is a better skater who can also excel on the rush.

And just happens to have one of the best one-timers in the league.

Comparing an elite dual threat to a one dimensional playmaker (albeit a very good one) is kind of insulting tbh. There's very few players that are this elite as both a goal scorer and playmaker.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

IMO, Thornton has the same problem that Matthews does, in terms of being a bit too one dimensional an offensive player and not bringing enough of the other element. Obvious they're polar opposites in what that strength (and shortcoming) is. But it's the same issue, IMO, that leads to both guys being neutralized in the playoffs.

It's why the double threats (great at both goal scoring and playmaking) are always going to be superior when it matters most.

 

[Bizz]

Thornton 134 playoff points in 187 games played
Draisaitl 133 playoff points in 90 games played

Thornton never got carried by a Generational talent.

 

[LokiDog]

Considering Draisaitl has a better resume already with half a career still to play? Draisaitl will easily walk away with this. When all is said and done he will be far higher up the list of all-time players.

And before anyone chimes in with the McDavid shit, Draisaitl has more than proven he holds his own and has shown up and even dominated with McDavid out or not showing up on the score sheet. It was an argument years ago, it’s now just cope from people who can’t stand Edmonton having the #1 and #2 player in the league. And I don’t like Edmonton. Reality simply is reality.

 

[The Pale King]

Thornton definitely stuck around too long and that has definitely coloured some people's memory of his prime. I'd still take Draisaitl here, but let's not pretend that playing with Connor McDavid hasn't helped him a ton. I'm not saying "carried", but it helps. They are perfect play-style matches for one another.

That situation is a bit like if Thornton had got to play with a prime Brett Hull or Ovechkin.

This question isn't that dissimilar to Malkin vs Thornton. Less squinting involved because their careers overlapped more.

Never thought I'd be defending Joe Thornton but here we are. People can change! Let him hold the baby.

 

[seafoam]

Draisaitl AINEC.

 

[seafoam]

Thornton never got carried by a Generational talent.

Draisaitl is a generational talent.

 

[SuperScript29]

I did.

None of that is going to explain why there is a 100% difference in the point totals they’ve amassed.

Going to war? You sure the main difference isn’t simply not being a kid now?

What on earth are you talking about? It's a different era, the point totals are going to be different based on how the game was played during that era. By your logic, Draisaitl is better than Gordie Howe by a wide margin too

 

[Video Nasty]

What on earth are you talking about? It's a different era, the point totals are going to be different based on how the game was played during that era. By your logic, Draisaitl is better than Gordie Howe by a wide margin too

Howe led the playoffs in scoring six times.

Hopefully that makes it clear that you’re misinterpreting my position.

 

[Felidae]

Drai has doubled Joe's playoff ppg. That is not offset by a mere era adjustment. More so considering a lot more of these points were goals.

I mean that's sort of my point. The gap isn't as big as Draisatl having doubled Thornton's playoff ppg. But yes, even with era adjustment Draisatl is still very clearly the better playoff performer.

 

[Bandit]

Such as?

 

[SuperScript29]

Howe led the playoffs in scoring six times.

Hopefully that makes it clear that you’re misinterpreting my position

Sure, but my point is using playoff points to compare two different eras is a flawed argument. Especially since half of Drai's playoff points involve McDavid. Without that kind of generational talent next to him I genuinely believe he'd have less playoff points, still better than Thornton? Sure, I already said that from my first post, but the whole "wide margin" argument is absurd when you readjust the era and consider who they played with.

 

[Stephen]

I think Draisaitl is on a different level than Thornton.

 

[Frank Drebin]

View attachment 1044368

You’re comparing cheechoo to draisatl?

 

[Ghost of Murph]

This seems like an odd comparison to me. Jumbo is one of my faves all time to the point I own multiple Thornton sweaters and loved watching him play about as much as anyone in his era. That being said, Drai is clearly the better overall player.

Thornton wasn't as bad as some think in the playoffs, but he wasn't fantastic on the whole in the postseason.

Drai on the other hand has been a great postseason player. I firmly believe he would have won the Conn Smythe had Pietrangelo not been a bitch and intentionally slashed Drai's wrist in 2023. Drai was a god among men that playoffs. On the PP that postseason Drai was as automatic as anyone I've seen in the playoffs. Thornton never was at that level. Just one example among several that point to Drai being the better player.