Joe Thornton vs Leon Draisaitl. Better player?

[Perfect_Drug]

You could argue Thornton is a better passer.

But Draisaitl has the NHL record: 15 assists in a single playoff series (5 Games):

 

[zenator]

I'm taking the guy with 133 points in 90 playoff games over the guy with 134 in 187. And the playoff goals advantage of 48 vs 32 in half the games.

It's not even close.

 

[CTHabsfan]

I think Joe Thornton doesn't get enough respect on this board, but there's no way I'd take him over Draisaitl.

 

[MessierII]

I pick Joe too

You might as well turn in your hockey fan card with your takes the past couple days.

 

[Hockeyholic]

You might as well turn in your hockey fan card with your takes the past couple days.

I disagree

 

[SuperScript29]

You could argue Thornton is a better passer.

But Draisaitl has the NHL record: 15 assists in a single playoff series (5 Games):

View attachment 1044141

Argue away, 10 of those 15 assist involved McDavid, just saying.

 

[HFpapi]

I love Jumbo Joe but if there is a single argument for Joe > Leon I'd love to hear it because I don't see one.

Also, come on with the desperation "teammates" argument.

Murray - Thornton - Knuble

and

Marleau - Thornton - Heatley

were both one of the best lines in the league in their day. Sometimes it's not about the individual talent, lines are made from complimentary play styles and good chemistry. The Boston line was fantastic regardless of the star power of Murray and Knuble. Murray also had 2x 29 goal seasons prior to the trade to Boston and had 6 goals in 9 games with LA the season he was traded so Joe didn't exactly make chicken salad out of chicken shit there.

Cheechoo was also a really good player on the come-up. Injuries make his Rocket look more out of place than it otherwise would have.

Lastly, I saw someone on the first page say Joe has two 100+ point seasons. In fairness to Joe, he has 3. One of them doesn't look like it on his stats page because it was the year he was traded but has seasons of 125, 114, and 101 points.

 

[ReturnOfTheDrai]

Crosby or Draisaitl would be a better comparison, this is a no contest.

 

[Booker T]

Joe Thornton was built for DPE hockey, 6' 4" ~ 220lbs, whereas Leon Draisaitl is built for today's fast paced game. Thornton would do better than Leon in the DPE, whereas Leon would do better than Thornton in today's fast paced game.

 

[SuperScript29]

I love Jumbo Joe but if there is a single argument for Joe > Leon I'd love to hear it because I don't see one.

Also, come on with the desperation "teammates" argument.

Murray - Thornton - Knuble

and

Marleau - Thornton - Heatley

were both one of the best lines in the league in their day. Sometimes it's not about the individual talent, lines are made from complimentary play styles and good chemistry. The Boston line was fantastic regardless of the star power of Murray and Knuble. Murray also had 2x 29 goal seasons prior to the trade to Boston and had 6 goals in 9 games with LA the season he was traded so Joe didn't exactly make chicken salad out of chicken shit there.

Cheechoo was also a really good player on the come-up. Injuries make his Rocket look more out of place than it otherwise would have.

Lastly, I saw someone on the first page say Joe has two 100+ point seasons. In fairness to Joe, he has 3. One of them doesn't look like it on his stats page because it was the year he was traded but has seasons of 125, 114, and 101 points.

That's kind of none sense, we are talking about one of the greatest hockey players of all times versus guys who were very good. On the Oilers it's like having RNH and replacing McDavid with William Nylander.

 

[Austerlitz]

I think Draisaitl has moved well past Thornton in the all-time center discussion.

 

[HFpapi]

That's kind of none sense, we are talking about one of the greatest hockey players of all times versus guys who were very good. On the Oilers it's like having RNH and replacing McDavid with William Nylander.

Nonsense is reducing every single argument ever down to "but xyz had better teammates."

Thornton was a passer and benefited from having two very good snipers on his wing at all times. McDavid doesn't explain why Thornton is a 25 goal scorer and Draisaitl is a 55 goal scorer, sorry.

Draisaitl also doesn't play every shift with good players, he drives his own line. Also, we have eyes. We can just see who is better.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Argue away, 10 of those 15 assist involved McDavid, just saying.

Well the main thing was his sprained knee.
7 of those 15 Assists would have been goals if his shot wasn't wrecked.

50 goal scorer who can't score just decided to become an all-time elite passer.

 

[Austerlitz]

Argue away, 10 of those 15 assist involved McDavid, just saying.

And yet he outscored McDavid in that series. And has in about half of the series he and McDavid have played together (I haven't looked recently so it might have changed post Vegas and Dallas but it was like 7-6 split).

 

[Romang67]

Thornton spent basically his entire career in either DPE 1.0 or DPE 2.0. He was in high scoring environments in 2005, 2006 and 2008. And then again when he was around 40 years old. Draisaitl has spent almost his entire career in the highest scoring era since the mid 90s.

I don't think Draisaitl has an edge as a regular season player. I think the difference is mainly era driven. I think Draisaitl is a much better playoff performer.

 

[Austerlitz]

Nonsense is reducing every single argument ever down to "but xyz had better teammates."

Thornton was a passer and benefited from having two very good snipers on his wing at all times. McDavid doesn't explain why Thornton is a 25 goal scorer and Draisaitl is a 55 goal scorer, sorry.

Draisaitl also doesn't play every shift with good players, he drives his own line. Also, we have eyes. We can just see who is better.

He also just put up nine points in five games in the western conference finals with Podkolzin and Kapanen as his linemates.

 

[Skolman]

Your very short history on these boards suggests you really don't like Edmonton, is that correct?

 

[Romang67]

To expand on the difference in scoring by era, if you order the seasons following the 2004 lockout by scoring, 8 of the 9 highest scoring seasons are the last 8 seasons. Only the season immediately following the lockout is up there with the current scoring era, and that season Thornton scored 125 points which led the league.

 

[HFpapi]

He also just put up nine points in five games in the western conference finals with Podkolzin and Kapanen as his linemates.

But you don't understand, if Thornton had better linemates than Marleau, Heatley, Pavelski, Burns, Hertl, Couture, et al he totally would have produced in the playoffs!

Only guys who play with top 5 players of all time can be held accountable for their play.

Sarcasm aside I hate having to have a go at Thornton cause I love him but saying Draisaitl isn't better than Thornton he just gets to play with a better player is the laziest argument.

 

[majormajor]

Draisaitl has played in a considerably higher scoring era. Thornton played in the DPE, and in the DPE 2.0, with a brief period of higher scoring for like 3 seasons after the lockout.

The league scoring on average over the period 2017-2025 is right around where the league scoring was in 2005 when Thornton had 125 points.

If you look at scoring relative to their contemporaries Draisaitl still comes out ahead.

Fun fact Leon is only 3 playoff points behind Jumbo Joe.

Just one point behind now. That's really insane, Draisaitl is not even 30 yet and has played less than half as many playoff games as Jumbo.

Who is comparable to Draisaitl in terms of playoff scoring relative to their contemporaries? Like after Gretzky I imagine, but then who?

I checked the all time playoff points leaders and in terms of era adjusted points per game it looks like Gretzky -> Lemieux -> McDavid -> Draisaitl

That's without doing the math though if anybody wants to follow up.

 

[SuperScript29]

Nonsense is reducing every single argument ever down to "but xyz had better teammates."

Thornton was a passer and benefited from having two very good snipers on his wing at all times. McDavid doesn't explain why Thornton is a 25 goal scorer and Draisaitl is a 55 goal scorer, sorry.

Draisaitl also doesn't play every shift with good players, he drives his own line. Also, we have eyes. We can just see who is better.

Actually, McDavid is the main reason why Drai is a 50+ goal scorer. Every single one of those 50+ seasons McDavid racked up 70+ assists. Different players sure, but imagine if Thornton had Ovechkin on his wing, I'm 100% sure his numbers would have skyrocketed, and with that, I think McDavid is a better player than Ovechkin.

 

[SuperScript29]

And yet he outscored McDavid in that series. And has in about half of the series he and McDavid have played together (I haven't looked recently so it might have changed post Vegas and Dallas but it was like 7-6 split).

Even if he outscored him, the fact that McDavid contributed this much to his offense makes this a super unfair argument. Had Thornton had a scorer of the level of Ovechkin on his wing, okay we can have that argument.

 

[Sanderson]

That's kind of none sense, we are talking about one of the greatest hockey players of all times versus guys who were very good. On the Oilers it's like having RNH and replacing McDavid with William Nylander.

No, what's really nonsense is this hypocrisy regarding Draisaitl a selective bunch of people show. Largely through statements which show they don't really watch him at all. Somehow every other star gets a pass for playing with (multiple) other stars or even alltime greats, yet Draisaitl gets reduced to "he played with McDavid".

It's hare-brained to the point of being illogical. Draisaitl has performed exceptionally well everytime McDavid has been out. He has straight up bested McDavid in two seasons. And every time he has not played with McDavid - which is indeed the majority of the time - he had to carry a bunch of very average players around. Something basically no other elite player of the current time has to do. When they are seperated, it's McDavid who gets the best Edmonton has to offer (Hyman, Nugent-Hopkins) while Draisaitl gets Podkolzin, Kapanen, Brown or Arvidsson. Of these, only Arvidsson once was a top-6 forward, and that wasn't a level he has shown this year.

When you look at their entire icetime, players like MacKinnon or Kucherov get far more help overall, as they don't have to spend the majority of their time with depth-players. And that doesn't even cover the help from defense, as Edmonton's main offensive weapon from the backend gets mostly paired with McDavid, not Draisaitl. Something that cannot be said about the other elite players around.

 

[SuperScript29]

No, what's really nonsense is this hypocrisy regarding Draisaitl a selective bunch of people show. Largely through statements which show they don't really watch him at all. Somehow every other star gets a pass for playing with (multiple) other stars or even alltime greats, yet Draisaitl gets reduced to "he played with McDavid".

It's hare-brained to the point of being illogical. Draisaitl has performed exceptionally well everytime McDavid has been out. He has straight up bested McDavid in two seasons. And every time he has not played with McDavid - which is indeed the majority of the time - he had to carry a bunch of very average players around. Something basically no other elite player of the current time has to do. When they are seperated, it's McDavid who gets the best Edmonton has to offer (Hyman, Nugent-Hopkins) while Draisaitl gets Podkolzin, Kapanen, Brown or Arvidsson. Of these, only Arvidsson once was a top-6 forward, and that wasn't a level he has shown this year.

When you look at their entire icetime, players like MacKinnon or Kucherov get far more help overall, as they don't have to spend the majority of their time with depth-players. And that doesn't even cover the help from defense, as Edmonton's main offensive weapon from the backend gets mostly paired with McDavid, not Draisaitl. Something that cannot be said about the other elite players around.

Okay, simple question, you get to choose between McDavid or Draisaitl, who are you taking? I'll simplify, one answer will get you laughed at, and the other will prove my point that Drai will always play second fiddle, just like how Malkin was behind Crosby, Fedorov behind Yzerman, Forsberg behind Sakic, etc. Thornton never had that kind of linemate, he was for most part always seen as the top player on his team.

For the record, just in case you want to check, I still said Drai was the better player, but it's actually close between him and Thornton, not a wide margin as some ppl are claiming.

 

[majormajor]

Joe Thornton was built for DPE hockey, 6' 4" ~ 220lbs, whereas Leon Draisaitl is built for today's fast paced game. Thornton would do better than Leon in the DPE, whereas Leon would do better than Thornton in today's fast paced game.

Draisaitl is even more built for DPE. Playoff hockey with the extra hooking and holding more closely resembles DPE, and Draisaitl is an all-timer in playoff performance.

Cheechoo was also a really good player on the come-up. Injuries make his Rocket look more out of place than it otherwise would have.

The popular memory has been very unfair to Cheechoo and overly inflates Thornton's abilities as a result. Cheechoo scored 28 goals the year before Thornton arrived, the leg injuries ruined what would have been a longer career for Cheechoo.

That's kind of none sense, we are talking about one of the greatest hockey players of all times versus guys who were very good. On the Oilers it's like having RNH and replacing McDavid with William Nylander.

Draisaitl's leading linemate by ice time is Vasili Podkolzin, not McDavid. He's usually not playing on a line with McDavid. The most common line was Podkolzin - Draisaitl - Arvidsson.