Post-Game Talk: Jets lose again to the Sharks 3-0

[surixon]

Yeah, doesn’t make sense to move your top two centres when “going for it.” Just a few weeks ago there was debate about whether or not we should sell the farm for this team … thankfully, we didn’t.

How exactly was the team going to sell trading Scheif and PLD to the fans if they did that last year? We were just all up here saying we should be going all in on this core, but now we’re saying we should have traded them? Why exactly? Them quitting on the team doesn’t have much to do with them not being traded last offseason IMO, especially considering how well they started the season.

Yup, if they were to be dealt it would have been last offseason. When that didn't transpire they should have both been made aware that it was unlikely they would have been dealt during the year. Even if it wasn't directly spelled out some self awareness would have dictated that a team performing well as we were the first 50 or so games wasn't going to move its two key centers.

It would have been a horrendous move optically for the org and a giant FU to fans at the time.

 

[BoneDocUK]

Just a quick comment on the bolded. We don't know how long PLD and Scheifele have wanted out of Winnipeg, but I'd guess it has been a very long time. At the last draft it was widely reported PLD was expecting to be traded, but it never materialized. A player in his position doesn't expect to be traded if you haven't asked to be traded. In terms of Scheifele at the exit interviews last season was widely criticized for implying maybe I want out to. Looking at that in hindsight my guess is had already asked to be traded by that point and likely asked again after that. Both PLD and Scheifele had very strong starts to the season thereby raising their trade values, but nothing was done. Chevy had from the end of last season, through the 2022 draft and free agency period, all summer and most of this season to make deals when their values were at the highest yet he didn't. This is not excusing their play, or the poor play of others, but Chevy's inaction and over conservative nature has played a huge role in this mess IMO.

This x 1000.

IMO in the current NHL it is very, very difficult to be an org that is a) in a tricky market, b) famously insular in its internal operations and stubborn in its overall vision and c) incredibly conservative its risk outlook and expect to have sustained success.

You can't "believe in this group" while ignoring clear evidence from within and without that this group is in significant disarray.

You can't run it back without a contingency plan for dealing with the fallout when running it back doesn't work because of the issues you've known about for years.

You can't afford to sell low on players you could have sold high on when the wheels fall off as a direct result of those issues you've known about for years.

You can't then respond reactively and too late to those issues you've known about for years and defend that inaction by claiming that you "believed in this group."

This is less about moving out one or a few players and more about a general vision for the team and org.

As this board has been saying for ages, the way to win in a small market is to be smarter and less complacent than the other guys. That means taking some risks and having a very clear sense of the pulse of the team and market.

This situation looks a lot like damaging indecision from a GM who knew better and didn't act when he might have to maximize asset value and team success across the board.

 

[surixon]

This x 1000.

IMO in the current NHL it is very, very difficult to be an org that is a) in a tricky market, b) famously insular in its internal operations and stubborn in its overall vision and c) incredibly conservative its risk outlook and expect to have sustained success.

You can't "believe in this group" while ignoring clear evidence from within and without that this group is in significant disarray.

You can't run it back without a contingency plan for dealing with the fallout when running it back doesn't work because of the issues you've known about for years.

You can't afford to sell low on players you could have sold high on when the wheels fall off as a direct result of those issues you've known about for years.

You can't then respond reactively and too late to those issues you've known about for years and defend that inaction by claiming that you "believed in this group."

This is less about moving out one or a few players and more about a general vision for the team and org.

As this board has been saying for ages, the way to win in a small market is to be smarter and less complacent than the other guys. That means taking some risks and having a very clear sense of the pulse of the team and market.

This situation looks a lot like damaging indecision from a GM who knew better and didn't act when he might have to maximize asset value and team success across the board.

Or it was an owner directing the GM to make another run to the playoffs with this group to make up COVID losses.

But either way once this group was playing well and competing this year it would have been nuts to move either of them.

 

[gojetsgo]

another winger moved out of the top six and it's not the winger that it should be

 

[Eyeseeing]

Or it was an owner directing the GM to make another run to the playoffs with this group to make up COVID losses.

But either way once this group was playing well and competing this year it would have been nuts to move either of them.

yup my feeling as well, may be not for the same reasons but I feel some hand tying is done from above

 

[scelaton]

another winger moved out of the top six and it's not the winger that it should be

Not the worst idea. Takes C responsibilities off Scheifele and gives him a chance to just put the puck in the net. It's a demotion without the embarrassment (I almost said humiliation! )

 

[Stumbledore]

another winger moved out of the top six and it's not the winger that it should be

Barron has been one of our most solid players. Makes no sense to move him down.

Names is unworthy of second line. Is he being showcased? For what, if he's a free agent next month.

 

[gojetsgo]

 

[LowLefty]

You can't "believe in this group" while ignoring clear evidence from within and without that this group is in significant disarray.

Tough spot for the GM

In reflection, I'd ask the following:

Did we believe in this group through the first 20 - 30 games?
Did the coaching change appear to resolve the issues from prior seasons?
Did the players all jump on board with the new coach and praise his coaching, communication and methods?
Did the key individuals who spoke out about this org and coaching, appear to be completely bought into the new world under Bones?

At what point do we ignore the evidence? They reacted with a coaching change.
And a coaching change has been requested by this board for years now - I didn't hear from too many that were asking the GM to make significant changes to the roster (including moving our best players) - especially in the back half of 2022.

The clear evidence is now hard to ignore - and IMO, they've sorted out one very important point - it's not the coaching.
Because according to most around here, it was a coaching issue leading into this season.
It was all we talked about.

What is truly ironic is that they made the change, success followed, and from the prospective of most, the issue was coaching after all.
But is wasn't. And now we know.

This will be interesting - hope it's the spark they need.
And gung-ho to boot - look forward to seeing

 

[LowLefty]

another winger moved out of the top six and it's not the winger that it should be

I'd agree - but will be interesting to see how this line works with Nino - they've been playing better lately and this should make them even better.
Big, fast, and now with more skill - might be a pleasant surprise.

 

[JonS]

Wheeler in the top six is just so wrong at this point.

 

[Duke749]

Wheeler in the top six is just so wrong at this point.

You’d have to move Ehlers to RW to do it which I wouldn’t be against. I think the problem is Wheeler and Lowry don’t really mesh well. Something like this might work…

81-80-55
62-7-27
36-17-26
8-28-22

 

[Gabe Kupari]

Connor Dubois Scheif? Sign me up

Ehlers and Names together? I'm down, they had some chemistry earlier b4 Dubois came back.

Nino on the 3rd? You know, he really hasn't done much but I don't see this as demotion at all. Nino likes to bang bodies out there.

 

[Gabe Kupari]

another winger moved out of the top six and it's not the winger that it should be

They ain't gonna move our only right shot winger out the top 6. Oh look we have 2 now tho. Reality Appleton and Saku are worse than Wheels. Could argue

Ehlers Names Nino

But then that puts 26 on the checking line. I dunno. He has no O so not sure how well he'd do in the bottom 6.

Wheels at center? Maybe that's a solution but reason he's not demoted is cuz he's better than apples and Saku...

Nino is a left shot like Ehlers

 

[SensibleGuy]

Tough spot for the GM

In reflection, I'd ask the following:

Did we believe in this group through the first 20 - 30 games?
Did the coaching change appear to resolve the issues from prior seasons?
Did the players all jump on board with the new coach and praise his coaching, communication and methods?
Did the key individuals who spoke out about this org and coaching, appear to be completely bought into the new world under Bones?

At what point do we ignore the evidence? They reacted with a coaching change.
And a coaching change has been requested by this board for years now - I didn't hear from too many that were asking the GM to make significant changes to the roster (including moving our best players) - especially in the back half of 2022.

The clear evidence is now hard to ignore - and IMO, they've sorted out one very important point - it's not the coaching.
Because according to most around here, it was a coaching issue leading into this season.
It was all we talked about.

What is truly ironic is that they made the change, success followed, and from the prospective of most, the issue was coaching after all.
But is wasn't. And now we know.


This will be interesting - hope it's the spark they need.
And gung-ho to boot - look forward to seeing

Can you point to anyone who stated coaching was the ONLY issue? Mo had to go. There just isn't any doubt about it. In fact, part of the problem with this org is that (as with so many other tough choices) he was here probably at least 2 seasons too many. But I don't think many people figured a coaching change was the only thing needed - or that Bones was necessarily the real coaching solution. In fact a lot of us were pretty disappointed that there weren't significant roster changes made in the off season. But, things looked good for a while this year so we were all made to eat some crow. But that crow is being spit back up now! lol.

 

[Stumbledore]

Tough spot for the GM

In reflection, I'd ask the following:

Did we believe in this group through the first 20 - 30 games?
Did the coaching change appear to resolve the issues from prior seasons?
Did the players all jump on board with the new coach and praise his coaching, communication and methods?
Did the key individuals who spoke out about this org and coaching, appear to be completely bought into the new world under Bones?

At what point do we ignore the evidence? They reacted with a coaching change.
And a coaching change has been requested by this board for years now - I didn't hear from too many that were asking the GM to make significant changes to the roster (including moving our best players) - especially in the back half of 2022.

The clear evidence is now hard to ignore - and IMO, they've sorted out one very important point - it's not the coaching.
Because according to most around here, it was a coaching issue leading into this season.
It was all we talked about.

What is truly ironic is that they made the change, success followed, and from the prospective of most, the issue was coaching after all.
But is wasn't. And now we know.


This will be interesting - hope it's the spark they need.
And gung-ho to boot - look forward to seeing

Wish I could like this about 100 times.

I answered yes to the first 4 questions loudly enough that Mrs. Wizard left her office across the hall to come and read over my shoulder. Agreed - the problem with this team is NOT the coaching.

 

[BoneDocUK]

another winger moved out of the top six and it's not the winger that it should be

Yikes.

El Nino brings the speed and grit and some scoring -- time to move him down a line so we can keep ineffective Wheeler in the top 6 at all costs.

First line looking less crap, so there's that.

Barron still marooned on Face-off Island, where offence Shall Not Be Spoken Of.

 

[Jets 31]

another winger moved out of the top six and it's not the winger that it should be

Couldn't agree more, but at the very least Scheifele and Wheeler aren't together finally so that's something i guess. Would rather Neo on the second line but maybe the second and 3rd lines will get close to the same minutes.

 

[tbcwpg]

Yikes.

El Nino brings the speed and grit and some scoring -- time to move him down a line so we can keep ineffective Wheeler in the top 6 at all costs.

First line looking less crap, so there's that.

Barron still marooned on Face-off Island, where offence Shall Not Be Spoken Of.

Do you trust Wheeler on defensively responsible Lowry's line? I'd like Wheeler's time reduced, but I think he's less dangerous with 27 and 7 than with 17.

 

[Jets 31]

They ain't gonna move our only right shot winger out the top 6. Oh look we have 2 now tho. Reality Appleton and Saku are worse than Wheels. Could argue

Ehlers Names Nino

But then that puts 26 on the checking line. I dunno. He has no O so not sure how well he'd do in the bottom 6.

Wheels at center? Maybe that's a solution but reason he's not demoted is cuz he's better than apples and Saku...

Nino is a left shot like Ehlers

Who cares what way Wheeler shoots, he's got no shot.

 

[Truenorthducky]

Wheeler in the top six is just so wrong at this point.

How is it wrong ? Lowry and him do not mix at all plus obviously that line is considered a shut down line. Fans are always the first ones to say nothing makes sense except to the actual coaches.

 

[Truenorthducky]

Who cares what way Wheeler shoots, he's got no shot.

55; 80 and 81 technically don’t have a shot either right now. The amount of goals scored by those three in the past 20 games will back it up. lol.

 

[KingBogo]

Fair points but which teams competing for top spot in their division move on from their top players when the goal is to make a run? I would think both players would be informed of that plan and would be made aware that a deal would happen in the offseason.

I don't excuse their poor play at all, they are professionals and it was clear the plan was to try to get in and take a last shot with this group.

I doubt either was expecting to get dealt during the year unless things went off the rails.

I expect both thought they would be traded before the season and then tried to make the best of it when the season started. Not sure what happened after that, but I'd guess it was a whole bunch of variables that played into the current decline. We can speculate, but IMO Chevy needs to own a good chunk of the current mess.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

How has this approach of putting your top centers on one line worked for the Oilers (an example that comes to mind, I'm sure other teams have done it as well).

 

[Jets 31]

55; 80 and 81 technically don’t have a shot either right now. The amount of goals scored by those three in the past 20 games will back it up. lol.

True but at least their shots have some umpf to them.

How has this approach of putting your top centers on one line worked for the Oilers (an example that comes to mind, I'm sure other teams have done it as well).

At this point I'll try anything.