Injury Report: Jets health in the playoffs

[Adam da bomb]

Is there a possibility that you notice it more with Stnnley than other D men because you're biased against him?

The reality is that it happens to every single decensemen in the league, but you're more likely to see it if you're watching it

Realistically, you're talking about anecdotes... but the stats guys will tell you that over a long enough period, that should show up in the numbers. And during the season (and so far in thr playoffs), he's largely fine as long as he's paired with the right partner and his minutes and matchups are managed properly.. which is what you'd expect for any bottom pairing defenseman

I still think the hatred for Stanley is a self-fullfilling thing that started with Garrett's article about him prior to the draft (that I suspect had less to do with what he thought about the player and more to do with letting the world know that he has some kind of inside scoop on what an NHL team is planning) and has snowballed from there. When the entire fan base is biased against him and just holding their breath for him to f*** up so they can say "SEE!!!! STANLEY SUCKS" when it happens... while ignoring the same gaffes from other players

Well said. I mean I think even his biggest supporters know he is what he is, he will never be a top 4 d, but, he is good enough as a bottom pairing d or a good #7. If he comes out, he comes out I’m not going to lose any sleep over it. I’d love for the next guy to come in and do great so he doesn’t get another chance.
But, I’m totally fine with them playing him. Just not with a guy with the same challenge as him. It’s either fleury Schenn or Stan Miller. He looks worse as Stan-Schenn.

It’s funny the people who want him to use his size, but, will also be the first to complain if he takes penalties. He used his size well when necessary on Kyrou and Thomas. More of that would have led to more penalties and been worse for team.

 

[Buffdog]

He's not biased in terms of transition. Stanley is at the very bottom in terms of zone exit microstats.

I'm very wary of how those are tracked and who tracks them

 

[surixon]

I'm very wary of how those are tracked and who tracks them

That's fair. I just look at it like this, every player in a depth role has one or more fairly big flaws or short commings to their game. If they didn't they'd be higher up the lineup. The good teams find players with complimentary games where the flaws of each are compensated for by their respective partners.

That to me is what you see when you play Stanley with a more mobile and better puck moving partner in Miller. The pairing works really well and it allows Stanley to focus on the things he does well and not have to take on too big a load in regards to the things he doesn't do well.

The issue with Stanley and Schenn is that neither is compensating for the others weaknesses and as a result you get a poor performing pairing. I'm not blaming either, it's just a poor fit.

The same thing could be said about our second pairing this year. In past years our second pairing had a hard time in large part because Pionk isn't an amazing transition player and they put him with Dillon who isn't good at it either. So that pairing spent more time defending and less time allowing Pionk to do what he's good at. Enter Snerg who is actually a extremely good transition dmen and all of a sudden Pionk doesn't have to shoulder that responsibility. It freed him up to focus on what he's good and that is driving offense in the offensive zone.

 

[Buffdog]

That's fair. I just look at it like this, every player in a depth role has one or more fairly big flaws or short commings to their game. If they didn't they'd be higher up the lineup. The good teams find players with complimentary games where the flaws of each are compensated for by their respective partners.

That to me is what you see when you play Stanley with a more mobile and better puck moving partner in Miller. The pairing works really well and it allows Stanley to focus on the things he does well and not have to take on too big a load in regards to the things he doesn't do well.

The issue with Stanley and Schenn is that neither is compensating for the others weaknesses and as a result you get a poor performing pairing. I'm not blaming either, it's just a poor fit.

The same thing could be said about our second pairing this year. In past years our second pairing had a hard time in large part because Pionk isn't an amazing transition player and they put him with Dillon who isn't good at it either. So that pairing spent more time defending and less time allowing Pionk to do what he's good at. Enter Snerg who is actually a extremely good transition dmen and all of a sudden Pionk doesn't have to shoulder that responsibility. It freed him up to focus on what he's good and that is driving offense in the offensive zone.

Well said, and I agree 100%

 

[Jet]

I’ve torn up both my shoulders with what were described as massive tears. Stick work was never a problem. Nothing below my chest was a problem. Raising my arm with my shoulder ended just below shoulder height. Anything below that was fine.

Every day I regret playing though it. A few things for you to take note of as you are playing through it (although you sound like an expert on joint injuries already). First make sure you get checked out, Pan Am was great. If you need surgery, you got 6 weeks to get it done for best results. Fun fact, if you get surgery and don’t have a recliner (you will need one) you can get a prescription for a rental.

I'm in MURICA so unfortunately medical treatment is only for life and death events.

Think the Knight in Monty Python's Holy Grail

 

[Gm0ney]

So, what's your theory about why Stanley's numbers seem to outperform what we're seeing on the ice (and why people think Stanley's worse than he actually is?).

Not being combative, just genuinely curious. It's it an anomaly? Sample size? Bias?

I think the secret is tied to why the Jets keep using him despite fans stunning to have a seething hate for him.

It's a small sample - just 55 minutes and 83 shot attempts total at 5v5. 36 of those 55 minutes were with Schenn and they performed poorly together across the board. His 19 minutes without Schenn have been statistically very good, and enough to pull his overall xGF% up, but the total sample is so tiny it's basically meaningless.

Fortunately, we do have the entire regular season sample of Stanley, where he's been bottom 3 in every metric share (out of 22 Jets skaters with 200+ minutes at 5v5) - except for GF%, where he's 16th/22.

I don't think you need to invoke biases to conclude that Stanley's series against the Blues was terrible. He contributed almost nothing besides taking a bunch of penalties and giving away the puck.

I think the secret as to why the Jets keep using him is that they believe they need his size out there. But at what cost? They don't seem to think he's much good at hockey, at least not if you look at his deployment.

 

[Jet]

Is there a possibility that you notice it more with Stnnley than other D men because you're biased against him?

The reality is that it happens to every single decensemen in the league, but you're more likely to see it if you're watching it

Realistically, you're talking about anecdotes... but the stats guys will tell you that over a long enough period, that should show up in the numbers. And during the season (and so far in thr playoffs), he's largely fine as long as he's paired with the right partner and his minutes and matchups are managed properly.. which is what you'd expect for any bottom pairing defenseman

I still think the hatred for Stanley is a self-fullfilling thing that started with Garrett's article about him prior to the draft (that I suspect had less to do with what he thought about the player and more to do with letting the world know that he has some kind of inside scoop on what an NHL team is planning) and has snowballed from there. When the entire fan base is biased against him and just holding their breath for him to f*** up so they can say "SEE!!!! STANLEY SUCKS" when it happens... while ignoring the same gaffes from other players

There is a lot of evidence to support this:

• People bitching about Stanley when he isn't even dressed
• People blaming Stanley for plays that aren't his fault
• People blowing mistakes way out of proportion
• People saying something that is the right play but doesn't work out due to the chaotic nature of hockey is Stanley's fault
• People refusing to give Stan any credit for good play

Of course, those people will call me a Stan fan or whatever else they want to call me. I'm trying to be as objective about it as I possibly can.

The part that irritates me the most about it is a bunch in that group don't even try to be objective or open-minded they just want to continually write the same lazy narrative over and over again.

 

[Jet]

It's a small sample - just 55 minutes and 83 shot attempts total at 5v5. 36 of those 55 minutes were with Schenn and they performed poorly together across the board. His 19 minutes without Schenn have been statistically very good, and enough to pull his overall xGF% up, but the total sample is so tiny it's basically meaningless.

Fortunately, we do have the entire regular season sample of Stanley, where he's been bottom 3 in every metric share (out of 22 Jets skaters with 200+ minutes at 5v5) - except for GF%, where he's 16th/22.

I don't think you need to invoke biases to conclude that Stanley's series against the Blues was terrible. He contributed almost nothing besides taking a bunch of penalties and giving away the puck.

I think the secret as to why the Jets keep using him is that they believe they need his size out there. But at what cost? They don't seem to think he's much good at hockey, at least not if you look at his deployment.

It just seems wild to me that a bunch of seasoned pros who've assembled and coached one of the very best teams in the league over the past 2 seasons wouldn't be able to figure out that his size doesn't overcome his weakness (if that's the case). Plus we're talking about 3 different HC's and several different coaching staff members.

Something isn't really adding up, here.

Again, I'm not trying to just argue with you, I am legitimately curious about this stuff.

 

[MelikeJets]

It just seems wild to me that a bunch of seasoned pros who've assembled and coached one of the very best teams in the league over the past 2 seasons wouldn't be able to figure out that his size doesn't overcome his weakness (if that's the case). Plus we're talking about 3 different HC's and several different coaching staff members.

Something isn't really adding up, here.

Again, I'm not trying to just argue with you, I am legitimately curious about this stuff.

I agree. I cringe when I see Stanley is in the line up. Why is he still a Jet? Because of pride ....Chevy traded to move up in draft to nab him and doesn't want to admit it was a mistake. I have no problem with the draft move but after so many years it's time to move on from "big" Stan.

 

[Jet]

I agree. I cringe when I see Stanley is in the line up. Why is he still a Jet? Because of pride ....Chevy traded to move up in draft to nab him and doesn't want to admit it was a mistake. I have no problem with the draft move but after so many years it's time to move on from "big" Stan.

Sorry but this adds nothing to the argument.

I don't believe for one second Cheveldayoff's pride is affecting this decision one bit. Chevy has said himself he has zero say in player deployment.

I'm looking for cogent arguments.

 

[Buffdog]

I agree. I cringe when I see Stanley is in the line up. Why is he still a Jet? Because of pride ....Chevy traded to move up in draft to nab him and doesn't want to admit it was a mistake. I have no problem with the draft move but after so many years it's time to move on from "big" Stan.

You honestly think that Chevy would let his "pride" get in the way of icing the most competitive team possible?

That's irrational bullshit

 

[MelikeJets]

Sorry but this adds nothing to the argument.

I don't believe for one second Cheveldayoff's pride is affecting this decision one bit. Chevy has said himself he has zero say in player deployment.

I'm looking for cogent arguments.

Fair enough but you did say "something is not adding up". My opinion is Stanley is still on the team because of Chevy. How can so many fans see how poorly he plays and yet he's still on the team?

 

[gojetsgo]

 

[MelikeJets]

You honestly think that Chevy would let his "pride" get in the way of icing the most competitive team possible?

That's irrational bullshit

It's my opinion calm down pal.

 

[Buffdog]

There is a lot of evidence to support this:

• People bitching about Stanley when he isn't even dressed
• People blaming Stanley for plays that aren't his fault
• People blowing mistakes way out of proportion
• People saying something that is the right play but doesn't work out due to the chaotic nature of hockey is Stanley's fault
• People refusing to give Stan any credit for good play

Of course, those people will call me a Stan fan or whatever else they want to call me. I'm trying to be as objective about it as I possibly can.

The part that irritates me the most about it is a bunch in that group don't even try to be objective or open-minded they just want to continually write the same lazy narrative over and over again.

People just parrot what they've heard so they can feel like part of a tribe

 

[gojetsgo]

 

[MelikeJets]

You honestly think that Chevy would let his "pride" get in the way of icing the most competitive team possible?

That's irrational bullshit

It's my opinion calm down pal

 

[jokesondee]

Huge if true.

 

[Jet]

Fair enough but you did say "something is not adding up". My opinion is Stanley is still on the team because of Chevy. How can so many fans see how poorly he plays and yet he's still on the team?

I'm going to guess a couple of things:

The average fan and their bias is not a good measure of a players performance
The echo chamber is real when it comes to player assessment

I am open to ideas I hadn't considered but the Chevy and his pride argument has never sat well with me.

 

[Jet]

Huge if true.

ermagerrrrrrd!

 

[surixon]

Sorry but this adds nothing to the argument.

I don't believe for one second Cheveldayoff's pride is affecting this decision one bit. Chevy has said himself he has zero say in player deployment.

I'm looking for cogent arguments.

It seems to me the coaches really didn't want JoMo on the PK so they needed someone for the second PK rotation on LD as they used DeMelo and Pionk as the top 2 RD rotations and didn't seem to trust Miller to play his offside on the PK.

The choices for that were Fleury, Stanley and Heinola.

The org doesn't trust Heinola really at all and they didn't have any time for him on the PK so he's out.

In terms of Fleury and Stanley neither posted particularly good PK metrics but Stanley's were better so I'd imagine that was a pretty big factor here.

 

[Buffdog]

WHAT ABOUT STANLEY!?!?!?!?

 

[gojetsgo]

WHAT ABOUT STANLEY!?!?!?!?

regular

 

[Huffer]

The injury thread is now the Stanley thread lol.

IMO, one of the things with Stan is that on both ends of the spectrum (good and bad) his plays can be high event / highly noticeable.

So sometimes you see him out there shut down a zone entry, or easily physically remove a guy from the puck, or take two or three long strides and easily get the puck out of the zone and you're like, yes, if the Jets can get this out of a 6'7" D man, that is going to be great. And I can see the alluring appeal for the coaches too. Sometimes it's just right there.

But on the flipside, sometimes he makes some really bad reads in the neutral zone and allows a pretty uncontested zone entry, or he fumbles the puck and then makes a free pizza type D zone pass, or just gets caught running around the D zone. And those ones seem to end in quality chances against or goals.

Agree with the comments about being heavily partner dependent from a complementary skill perspective. I think almost all players are, but I'd imagine it's more magnified with the depth players.

 

[Jet]

People just parrot what they've heard so they can feel like part of a tribe

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Like I'll talk about Stanley with a guy like Gm0ney all day because he comes with a well thought out argument and is respectful (if not a little sassy). I don't necessarily agree with everything he says but I love the discussion.

These guys who just continually say shit like Stanley sucks, or he's the worst player even of the taxi squad - that's just, IMHO, idiotic spew.