Post-Game Talk: Jets 8 - Sharks 3

[Mortimer Snerd]

That's why you need balance throughout your lineup, so lines can pick each other up. Over the 1st 3 games the 2nd line had dismal numbers and were picked up by other lines. Game by game analytics are mostly useless unless you have an axe to grind and then they are great fodder. Far and away the team leaders in xGF% are our 4th line. Of course they don't actually score much they just expectantly score a lot

The number of interest here is the TOI for the same number of shifts. Almost double. That indicates a problem. It may or may not be connected to the CF%.

 

[Buffdog]

Main thing is that the Jets pounded a team that they should beat - they didnt always do that

Good
- Ehlers really is the key to that powerplay so far - his zone entries do make a difference and that has been a real issue
- Samberg and Pionk look like they have real chemistry - Id still like to have Dillon over Fleury on that third pair since we basically had the capspace but the D looks solid
- Perfetti snapped his slump

Less Good
- Connor-Scheif shift length - this is an annual issue that gets ugly by mid-season... hopefully its addressed
- Perfetti-Ehlers chemistry - I dont see it... I think both players benefit more from a net front forechecker like Nino, Iafallo or Barron than from each other - but then you have line politics in play... the 2nd PP line of Nino-Perfetti-Iafallo looked really comfortable together

CSV
Barron-Lowry-Apples
Nino-Perfetti-Iafallo
Ehlers-Names-Kupari

What about swapping Ehlers and Barron in your lineup?

I think Ehlers would bring some extra offense to that Lowry line, turning them into a borderline "scoring line"

 

[Adam da bomb]

The number of interest here is the TOI for the same number of shifts. Almost double. That indicates a problem. It may or may not be connected to the CF%.

Yep. I mean the first line should get more minutes, but, that should come from more shifts not longer shifts.

 

[Inanna]

So there’s this strawberry jam mixed with Carolina reaper peppers that I buy at a local market. It’s fantastic on omelettes and with eggs more generally. Any other ideas on what I should try it on?

Also, leave this post alone you dang dirty mods. It’s on topic. Look:

As far as hockey games go, that was a fun one.

Sounds like one of Caroline's Classics jams. They're made in Arizona, I think, but available at the Barrie Farmer's Market (which will tediously tell you it's operated continuously on the same block for some 200 years).

I had to miss the game last night but it sounds like a total mismatch. Perhaps the Pengies will give us more competition, but wouldn't undefeated in five sound really good?

 

[Jet]

scheifele and connor starting their abysmal defensive play early.
dont worry though, the lesser paid, lesser depth charted players will pick up their slack as they did tremendously last year to little to no credit from this forum. and when that dries up the usual crew will shit on them.
who cares about our 2 of our leaders at fwd and highest paid players actually putting in a 2-way effort as long as they get their PP time and EN time it's all good.

Yup and 55 and 81 will just keep entertaining and scoring clutch goals, but the stats nerds don't care about that.

 

[WolfHouse]

What about swapping Ehlers and Barron in your lineup?

I think Ehlers would bring some extra offense to that Lowry line, turning them into a borderline "scoring line"

I think a guy like Perfetti or Ehlers can help Kupari succeed - Lowry line will always gravitate towards a shutdown line that gets streaky with points... I think thats more based on Lowrys hands a no one is fixing that

 

[DRW204]

Yup and 55 and 81 will just keep entertaining and scoring clutch goals, but the stats nerds don't care about that.

they dont , says who? people bring up 5v5 GF and GA all the time but it gets scoffed away. just b/c you keep repeating it in a bunch of threads doesn't make it true.

where was the clutch goal last night? were you at the game, b/c i don't think they provided any entertainment of the sort from those who were there.

 

[Jet]

they dont , says who? people bring up 5v5 GF and GA all the time but it gets scoffed away. just b/c you keep repeating it in a bunch of threads doesn't make it true.

where was the clutch goal last night? were you at the game, b/c i don't think they provided any entertainment of the sort from those who were there.

Yes because one blowout game is the criteria.

Nice try

 

[raideralex99]

scheifele and connor starting their abysmal defensive play early.
dont worry though, the lesser paid, lesser depth charted players will pick up their slack as they did tremendously last year to little to no credit from this forum. and when that dries up the usual crew will shit on them.
who cares about our 2 of our leaders at fwd and highest paid players actually putting in a 2-way effort as long as they get their PP time and EN time it's all good.

The name of the game is to out scored the other team which Scheifele and Connor have done in all 4 games.
Seriously what do you want?
Trade Scheifele and Connor for more defensive players so the Jets have have 2 Lowrey lines?
Its a team game you need offensive players you need defensive players.
I can see if the Jets were 0-4 and Scheifele and Connor were in the minus category but for heaven's sake they are 4-0 and actually have won 12 straight regular season games ... relax and enjoy.
Does McDavid play great defense?
He gets a lot of points so nobody complains about his defense ... he is minus 1 after 5 games ... MacKinnon is minus 5.

 

[DRW204]

Yes because one blowout game is the criteria.

Nice try

in response to a post of their effort last night you said "keep entertaining and scoring clutch goals," which didnt happen

but i do see my OP was capturing more than just last night's game, so i can concede.

 

[Buffdog]

they dont , says who? people bring up 5v5 GF and GA all the time but it gets scoffed away. just b/c you keep repeating it in a bunch of threads doesn't make it true.

where was the clutch goal last night? were you at the game, b/c i don't think they provided any entertainment of the sort from those who were there.

Schief and Connor carried the team offensively for 3 games while Ehelrs and Perfetti sucked balls

Ehlers and Perfetti carried the team offensively in a game where Connor and Schief may have sucked balls (I didn't see much of the game)

That's how the league works. How many games out of 82 do you think any team has all their guys going?

I'm happy that the 2nd line is coming alive to provide offensive depth. That's what they're there for

And yes, there will be games where both those lines suck balls and the bottom 6 and helle win it for us and that's OK too

2 points are 2 points

 

[WolfHouse]

The name of the game is to out scored the other team which Scheifele and Connor have done in all 4 games.
Seriously what do you want?
Trade Scheifele and Connor for more defensive players so the Jets have have 2 Lowrey lines?
Its a team game you need offensive players you need defensive players.
I can see if the Jets were 0-4 and Scheifele and Connor were in the minus category but for heaven's sake they are 4-0 and actually have won 12 straight regular season games ... relax and enjoy.
Does McDavid play great defense?
He gets a lot of points so nobody complains about his defense ... he is minus 1 after 5 games ... MacKinnon is minus 5.

I see your point... but McDavid and McKinnon had 60-70 more points than Scheif - they are basically two Scheifeles in one player.

If Scheif can't produce elite scoring, then he has to provide above average D combined with above average scoring

Scheif's comparables are Verhaeghe, Zibanejad, Kopitar, Robertson... all of these guys play a 200' game

 

[Joe Hallenback]

 

[bustamente]

 

[DRW204]

Schief and Connor carried the team offensively for 3 games while Ehelrs and Perfetti sucked balls

Ehlers and Perfetti carried the team offensively in a game where Connor and Schief may have sucked balls (I didn't see much of the game)

That's how the league works. How many games out of 82 do you think any team has all their guys going?

I'm happy that the 2nd line is coming alive to provide offensive depth. That's what they're there for

And yes, there will be games where both those lines suck balls and the bottom 6 and helle win it for us and that's OK too

2 points are 2 points

what was each line's goal-differential heading into last night's game?

your giving the top line the EDM game, really.

the top-line should be carrying the team in net-goals/goal-differentials for the majority part of an 82 game season. they're the highest paid, highest TOI etc. obvs there's ebbs and flows/ups and downs to a long year. but take a look back at year-end, who were the main drivers in out-scoring the opposition at 5v5? (disclaimer-0 issue with them on the PP).

 

[surixon]

Schief and Connor carried the team offensively for 3 games while Ehelrs and Perfetti sucked balls

Ehlers and Perfetti carried the team offensively in a game where Connor and Schief may have sucked balls (I didn't see much of the game)

That's how the league works. How many games out of 82 do you think any team has all their guys going?

I'm happy that the 2nd line is coming alive to provide offensive depth. That's what they're there for

And yes, there will be games where both those lines suck balls and the bottom 6 and helle win it for us and that's OK too

2 points are 2 points

Agreed, every line will go through hot and cold stretches. You just need to hope those cold stretches don't align across the board. If you have two lines going at once you have a good chance of winning.

 

[10Ducky10]

LOL Can we rename him Mario?

Mario would always take the night off when the Pens would come to play the Jets in Wpg.

I remember that.
Usually said he was resting his back...

 

[snowkiddin]

Sounds like one of Caroline's Classics jams. They're made in Arizona, I think, but available at the Barrie Farmer's Market (which will tediously tell you it's operated continuously on the same block for some 200 years).

I had to miss the game last night but it sounds like a total mismatch. Perhaps the Pengies will give us more competition, but wouldn't undefeated in five sound really good?

Funny you mention Penguins when talking about food because I asked ChatGPT about eating penguins a while back.

Apparently, they’re a protected species and are not to be eaten but accounts from folks who have eaten them describe the texture as slimey and oily and the taste as quite fishy.

Definitely not for me, but I appreciate you bringing it up, nonetheless.

 

[DRW204]

The name of the game is to out scored the other team which Scheifele and Connor have done in all 4 games.
Seriously what do you want?
Trade Scheifele and Connor for more defensive players so the Jets have have 2 Lowrey lines?
Its a team game you need offensive players you need defensive players.
I can see if the Jets were 0-4 and Scheifele and Connor were in the minus category but for heaven's sake they are 4-0 and actually have won 12 straight regular season games ... relax and enjoy.
Does McDavid play great defense?
He gets a lot of points so nobody complains about his defense ... he is minus 1 after 5 games ... MacKinnon is minus 5.

why do you always bring up trading them? literally no one has said that. if Scheifele & Connor score 100+pts like McDavid or Mackinon and are a +30-35 at 5v5 for instance, then yeah who gives a shit about their defense. Can you point to the recent season where connor or scheifele did that?

i did enjoy last night's game thoroughly, a bit to much tbh

 

[Buffdog]

what was each line's goal-differential heading into last night's game?

your giving the top line the EDM game, really.

the top-line should be carrying the team in net-goals/goal-differentials for the majority part of an 82 game season. they're the highest paid, highest TOI etc. obvs there's ebbs and flows/ups and downs to a long year. but take a look back at year-end, who were the main drivers in out-scoring the opposition at 5v5? (disclaimer-0 issue with them on the PP).

Explain to me again the fascination with 5v5. Can you show me any proof ant 5v5 production/goal differential is a better predictor of team success than overall goal differential? You keep saying (and others) that top lines need to outchance their opposition at 5v5 but yesterday I brought up the fact that schief and Connor together are ballpark with matthews-marner and mcdavid-hyaman. How good is good enough, and at which point does their PP production make up for their 5v5 stats?

Every elite offensive players in the league scores a disproportionate amount of their points on the PP relative to the number of minutes played there

My post said that they carried the team offensively

 

[wraithsonwings]

undefeated in five

From your lips to the Hockey Gods' ears.

 

[DRW204]

Explain to me again the fascination with 5v5. Can you show me any proof ant 5v5 production/goal differential is a better predictor of team success than overall goal differential? You keep saying (and others) that top lines need to outchance their opposition at 5v5 but yesterday I brought up the fact that schief and Connor together are ballpark with matthews-marner and mcdavid-hyaman. How good is good enough, and at which point does their PP production make up for their 5v5 stats?

Every elite offensive players in the league scores a disproportionate amount of their points on the PP relative to the number of minutes played there

My post said that they carried the team offensively

when ppl are talking about the line's performance, they are talking about 5v5 game-play, not PP. team all-strengths goal-differential is important & includes special teams. 5v5 is 80%+ of the TOI, and PP/PK has higher TOI efficiency for GF or GA. players who only PK will be hurt in all-strengths goal differential and the other way for PP. on a team level it's a good indicator for sure.

Ive tried to bring up 5v5 goal-differential every post in this endless discussion since fancy-stats are dumb, malarkey w/e annotation has been given to them along the way.

i don't care about xGF% as much when looking back at how they performed relative to goals. if a line was 49 xGF% but a +10 for example.... like the idea of complaining about winning a chance share 51-49 rather than 49-51 is stupid as hell to me when you're outscoring them by 10.

so you bring up all those duos, how about goal-differential? unless that's fancy stats if so my apologies.
since the start of last year. from naturalstatrick at 5v5 (comparing apples to apples and independent of PP time), and not standardized per TOI
mcdavid-hyman-x are 79 GF 42GA
scheifele-connor-x are 36 GF 37 GA, remove ehlers; 30 GF 34 GA
matthews-marner-x are 46 GF 28 GA

last i checked TOR or EDM don't have anything close to Hellebuyck behind them either.

& ok sorry.
yes the players who get the most pp time - where there's the highest potential for offensive efficiency & almost 0 needs to play defense - are likely going to be carrying a team offensively. like what do you expect? players who are not allowed on the PP to be the highest scorers? or the guys playing PP2?

how about the actual 5v5 game play and line configs - which encompasses aspects of both GF and GA - and is the actual crux of this discussion.

 

[imec]

OMG, people! Listen to yourselves!!

4 and 0! Start the tank thread!!!

 

[Buffdog]

when ppl are talking about the line's performance, they are talking about 5v5 game-play, not PP. team all-strengths goal-differential is important & includes special teams. 5v5 is 80%+ of the TOI, and PP/PK has higher TOI efficiency for GF or GA. players who only PK will be hurt in all-strengths goal differential and the other way for PP. on a team level it's a good indicator for sure.

Ive tried to bring up 5v5 goal-differential every post in this endless discussion since fancy-stats are dumb, malarkey w/e annotation has been given to them along the way.

i don't care about xGF% as much when looking back at how they performed relative to goals. if a line was 49 xGF% but a +10 for example.... like the idea of complaining about winning a chance share 51-49 rather than 49-51 is stupid as hell to me when you're outscoring them by 10.

so you bring up all those duos, how about goal-differential? unless that's fancy stats if so my apologies.
since the start of last year. from naturalstatrick at 5v5 (comparing apples to apples and independent of PP time), and not standardized per TOI
mcdavid-hyman-x are 79 GF 42GA
scheifele-connor-x are 36 GF 37 GA, remove ehlers; 30 GF 34 GA
matthews-marner-x are 46 GF 28 GA

last i checked TOR or EDM don't have anything close to Hellebuyck behind them either.

& ok sorry.
yes the players who get the most pp time - where there's the highest potential for offensive efficiency & almost 0 needs to play defense - are likely going to be carrying a team offensively. like what do you expect? players who are not allowed on the PP to be the highest scorers? or the guys playing PP2?

how about the actual 5v5 game play and line configs - which encompasses aspects of both GF and GA - and is the actual crux of this discussion.

Fair enough on all points.

I'm not trying to compare Schiefele vs Lowry. I'm just trying to put into perspective that just because him and Connor break even at 5v5, it doesn't impact the overall record of the team to the extent that posters make it out to. I wouldn't call it a "nothingburger" by any stretch, but clearly it's not holding the team back to the same degree to which people make a fuss over it

Last season (the majority of which Schief and Connor played together when they were healthy), the Jets had the best 5v5 goal differential in the league. That was largely due to Helle (we were 2nd in goals against at 5v5 and 7th in goals for). Now, those results didn't come the way that people expect them to - by the 1st line winning/dominating matchups - but that's my point

Whether people want to admit it or not, clearly there's a reason that they're stapled at the hip. So the option is to seperate the two of them in order to gain 8 or 10 more goals for in the 5v5 differential (that the team is already elite in) but what is the fallout from doing so?

I admit that what I'm about to say is somewhat based on speculation (and somewhat based on inside info that mods are welcome to DM me about) but the team has decided that keeping Schief happy is more important than improving his 5v5 goal differential by a margin that wouldn't have made any difference during they'll regular season anyway

Now... with all that being said, maybe if the Jets fall to spot where Schief and Connor's 5v5 play begins to put a playoff spot in jeopardy, they might reasses the the pros and cons of splitting them up. And I do 100% expect changes in the top 6 when the team goes into a slump, which all teams invariably do

But complaining about it coming off a 4th overall finish and a in the middle of a 4-0 start seems pointless to me

As for the other duos, I was going off what Gmoney posted yesterday

 

[raideralex99]

I see your point... but McDavid and McKinnon had 60-70 more points than Scheif - they are basically two Scheifeles in one player.

If Scheif can't produce elite scoring, then he has to provide above average D combined with above average scoring

Scheif's comparables are Verhaeghe, Zibanejad, Kopitar, Robertson... all of these guys play a 200' game

Do you know the problem with stats are?
Perfetti leads the Jets in PP goals which is misleading because he got them all in one game against a weak team.
McDavid got 7 of his 9 points in 2 games vs the Canucks first round if it wasn't for injuries the Canucks probably beat them but that's another story ... the point is its not how many points you get but how many you get in each game to help win games.
Last year McDavid had 5 game winning goals while Kyle Connor got double that ...10 game winning goals playing 17 less games.
Does this mean Connor is better than McDavid?
Absolutely not everybody and their dog knows McDavid is the best player in the world right now all that stat does is show that Connor scored more important goals than McDavid.
I'm sick of the Scheifele/Connor line getting bashed when they are winning more games for the Jets than losing them that's why I'm keeping the stats so far they have outscored their opponents in all 4 games and guess what the Jets are 4-0 which means 55 & 81 did not lose any games because of their defensive play.