Post-Game Talk: Jets 2 - Kraken 1

[Gm0ney]

It's totally fair to bring this up. Arniel stuck with it thick and thin, and that patience is paying dividends. Lots of us were wrong on stocking with this line, me as much as anyone.

Things haven't really been "thin" recently except for the playoffs (and even then, it's hard to single out a particular line to blame in that series).

But since then, it's been all thick - no real pressure to mess with anything when the 3 other lines are good, you're getting Vezina goaltending, and the powerplay is clicking at 30%+ (it was actually nearly 45% in October when things were going really bad for CSV).

That gave CSV and the coaching staff a grace period to figure it out and develop some chemistry. And to their credit, they seem to have done that.

 

[Flair Hay]

Things haven't really been "thin" recently except for the playoffs (and even then, it's hard to single out a particular line to blame in that series).

But since then, it's been all thick - no real pressure to mess with anything when the 3 other lines are good, you're getting Vezina goaltending, and the powerplay is clicking at 30%+ (it was actually nearly 45% in October when things were going really bad for CSV).

That gave CSV and the coaching staff a grace period to figure it out and develop some chemistry. And to their credit, they seem to have done that.

Yeah the win streak gave us a buffer for 65 games to not have to hit the panic button. A well earned luxury.

 

[KingBogo]

Yet they weren’t buying in.

What do you mean? They are 100% buying in.

 

[Nolan Giesbrecht]

I have no idea why people complain when a team is winning its so silly.
The highest scoring team in the league that plays defence first and people are mentioning they need more offence from certain lines.
The Jets are 21-0-1 when they outshoot their opponents.
Seriously when I'm watching the Jets I enjoy watching the 3rd and 4th lines and love how the majority of the time they dominate and that's when you know you have a good depth team.

I’ll say, as someone who usually just reads comments and doesn’t supply them, that in this thread I’ve really enjoyed the discussion the “complainers” are having.

It’s not bitter or insulating, it’s just a conversation about what can improve and how, which is valid no matter how well the team is playing.

And most of it seems pretty humble, instead of projecting a “my way or the highway” vibe. The thought that people were complaining never actually crossed my mind until the accusation was out there.

I was able to be at the game last night and the team was mostly a joy to watch (I missed the first period), though the last third (?) of the the third was a bit boring/low event. Until the goal anyways.

 

[Buffdog]

My concern with the bolded is, why did we have to go through multiple seasons of the first line (or at least Connor and Scheifele together — Gabe was new last season) getting caved in? Because the coaching staff knew that, eventually, down the line, they would perform as they are now?

Don't get me wrong, I'm loving how the CSV line is playing now. I think like @KingBogo said much if it has to do with how Arniel wants them to play. I just don't think it was unfair for people to be critical of keeping the line together considering their previous results.

I will give credit to Arniel for sticking with them considering how well they've been playing this season but also ponder if whatever information the coaching staff was privy to that we aren't privy to actually justified keeping them together for so long with poor results. Is what we're getting from them now worth the past number of seasons that our first line was routinely getting outmatched?

I think I can answer that

People here assumed that the line wasn't successful due to its makeup

The coaching staff saw the potential in the line and knew it was due to how they were playing

The only answer any posters had on here for improving the top line was putting Ehlers on it. The coaching staff knew better

 

[Adam da bomb]

What do you mean? They are 100% buying in.

Weren’t as in past tense. Unless envisioning two way players is new.

 

[Adam da bomb]

I think I can answer that

People here assumed that the line wasn't successful due to its makeup

The coaching staff saw the potential in the line and knew it was due to how they were playing

The only answer any posters had on here for improving the top line was putting Ehlers on it. The coaching staff knew better

Wonder if he had to use the carrot and stick and tell them if they didn’t play a 2 way game ehlers and Connor would swap.

 

[Buffdog]

I’ll say, as someone who usually just reads comments and doesn’t supply them, that in this thread I’ve really enjoyed the discussion the “complainers” are having.

It’s not bitter or insulating, it’s just a conversation about what can improve and how, which is valid no matter how well the team is playing.

And most of it seems pretty humble, instead of projecting a “my way or the highway” vibe. The thought that people were complaining never actually crossed my mind until the accusation was out there.

I was able to be at the game last night and the team was mostly a joy to watch (I missed the first period), though the last third (?) of the the third was a bit boring/low event. Until the goal anyways.

There isn't a lot of complaining in this thread specifically. A lot of it is in the Pefetti and Stanley threads

It does only take one or two losses and it comes out in PGTs. The biggest complainers know to stay out of the ones after we win because they get drowned out pretty quickly

 

[snowkiddin]

I think I can answer that

People here assumed that the line wasn't successful due to its makeup

The coaching staff saw the potential in the line and knew it was due to how they were playing

The only answer any posters had on here for improving the top line was putting Ehlers on it. The coaching staff knew better

But the coaching staff knowing better led to multiple seasons of the first line getting outmatched.

We kept going back to the well, so I’m glad it’s bringing us water now. But for a couple of seasons our well-bucket kept coming up empty and instead of checking the bucket for leaks or fetching water from a nearby river, we just kept throwing it down there hoping things would change.

Now, things did change, but are the full buckets we’re pulling up now worth going thirsty for two-plus seasons?

 

[DRW204]

Things haven't really been "thin" recently except for the playoffs (and even then, it's hard to single out a particular line to blame in that series).

But since then, it's been all thick - no real pressure to mess with anything when the 3 other lines are good, you're getting Vezina goaltending, and the powerplay is clicking at 30%+ (it was actually nearly 45% in October when things were going really bad for CSV).

That gave CSV and the coaching staff a grace period to figure it out and develop some chemistry. And to their credit, they seem to have done that.

yup the criticism for them was warranted for years. if folks are going rate them high for their level of play this year , against the same criteria or measurements, they were not like this in previous ones, other than really with ehlers flanking one of the wings next to scheifele.

 

[Buffdog]

Wonder if he had to use the carrot and stick and tell them if they didn’t play a 2 way game ehlers and Connor would swap.

Who knows. Maybe Arniel has a different communication style than Bones

But the coaching staff knowing better led to multiple seasons of the first line getting outmatched.

We kept going back to the well, so I’m glad it’s bringing us water now. But for a couple of seasons our well-bucket kept coming up empty and instead of checking the bucket for leaks or fetching water from a nearby river, we just kept throwing it down there hoping things would change.

Now, things did change, but are the full buckets we’re pulling up now worth going thirsty for two-plus seasons?

I think you're overstating how bad the top line was. Essentially they were a saw off at 5v5, which i still think the org was happy with

People make it sound like they were getting outscored 66-33 instead of 51-49

 

[Adam da bomb]

But the coaching staff knowing better led to multiple seasons of the first line getting outmatched.

We kept going back to the well, so I’m glad it’s bringing us water now. But for a couple of seasons our well-bucket kept coming up empty and instead of checking the bucket for leaks or fetching water from a nearby river, we just kept throwing it down there hoping things would change.

Now, things did change, but are the full buckets we’re pulling up now worth going thirsty for two-plus seasons?

Different coach. This is Arniel’s 1st season and there was an adjustment period. In past he followed bones agenda. So those 2 seasons aren’t on him.

 

[KingBogo]

Weren’t as in past tense. Unless envisioning two way players is new.

And that is why I gave credit to Arniel at the start of this discussion. He seemed to be able to envision something with that line and have them buy in. It is not just good defensive play, but good defensive play that translates well to offensive opportunity. IMO Arniel saw something in how Scheifele and Connor played that could maximize their potential and they bought in.

To broaden the discussion out how did Yzerman go from being considered an offensive first, defensive liability one way player at the 1/2 way point of his career, to becoming known as one of the most defensively responsible, best 2 way centers of all time by the end of his career? Not saying they are Yzerman, but rather Arniel saw something and has them playing the way he has asked, with really nice results.

 

[Adam da bomb]

And that is why I gave credit to Arniel at the start of this discussion. He seemed to be able to envision something with that line and have them buy in. It is not just good defensive play, but good defensive play that translates well to offensive opportunity. IMO Arniel saw something in how Scheifele and Connor played that could maximize their potential and they bought in.

To broaden the discussion out how did Yzerman go from being considered an offensive first, defensive liability one way player at the 1/2 way point of his career, to becoming known as one of the most defensively responsible, best 2 way centers of all time by the end of his career? Not saying they are Yzerman, but rather Arniel saw something and has them playing the way he has asked, with really nice results.

I imagine the coach told yzerman that’s what we got to do to win and his offensive numbers dropped.

 

[Jack7222]

OR...

1. Don't complain
OR
2. Look at more than just those numbers before you do complain

It's one thing to complain about how a line is playing, but it's another to criticize the coaching staff for line combinations (while insinuating you know better) and to suggest that that's the problem

Arniel had faith in those three playing together. Posters on here complaining ablut them did not. We all know now who was right and who was wrong. You'd think that the people who were wrong would learn from that, but that's not the case

3. Arniel understood exactly what the "stats nerds" understood about the line, which is what allowed him to address the line's obvious issues. CSV aren't proving the stats nerds wrong, they're proving them right -- better efforts in the D zone from C - S has resulted in better metrics, which has given better results.

 

[voyageur]

I still really like the Nino-Names-Ehlers line... but Lowry is looking really solid

I do think we have missed an opportunity to run Nino as our 2C or 3C though.

I think these games have proven that we don't need to spend a high scoring offensive 2C... we need a first line and three 'second lines'

Arniel didn't like the turnover that could have ended up in the back of the net. When Appleton comes back if Ehlers makes poor puck decisions he'll probably get dropped off the line. I agree 1st line is the horses, everybody else should have a degree of being interchanged when needed to shake things up. Right now top 2 lines are going. Nino/Perfetti had a good game against Vancouver. See where it goes.

 

[KingBogo]

I imagine the coach told yzerman that’s what we got to do to win and his offensive numbers dropped.

I think that is part of it, but offensive players need to see how the offense will still be generated. These guys get paid the big money because they put pucks in the net, so you will never convince them to play good defense at the sacrifice of offense. IMO good coaches find a balance that the players buy into. I think Vilardi's skill set has played into this as well.

 

[Buffdog]

3. Arniel understood exactly what the "stats nerds" understood about the line, which is what allowed him to address the line's obvious issues. CSV aren't proving the stats nerds wrong, they're proving them right -- better efforts in the D zone from C - S has resulted in better metrics, which has given better results.

Not a single one of you offered anything to fix the top line last year except "put Ehlers on it"

Not a single post about how they should play... but I honestly think for a lot of the stat-centric posters, they don't have enough experience in the sport to understand exactly what they're watching without looking at the spreadsheets

There's nothing wrong with that, by the way... as long as you acknowledge that there are things you don't know and understand. The irony is that lots of stats folk actually think they know better than people that have been in and around the game at high levels for decades

 

[Adam da bomb]

I think that is part of it, but offensive players need to see how the offense will still be generated. These guys get paid the big money because they put pucks in the net, so you will never convince them to play good defense at the sacrifice of offense. IMO good coaches find a balance that the players buy into. I think Vilardi's skill set has played into this as well.

Another part of it I wonder if their shifts are shorter. They are still pretty long. Especially in ot vs la, but, they know the team goes as they go.

 

[Jack7222]

Not a single one of you offered anything to fix the top line last year except "put Ehlers on it"

Not a single post abour how they should play... but I honestly think for a lot of the stat-centric posters, they don't have enough experience in the sport to understand exactly what they're watching without looking at the spreadsheets

There's nothing wrong with that, by the way... as long as you acknowledge that there are things you don't know and understand. The irony is that lots of stats folk actually think they know better than people that have been in and around the game at high levels for decades

People talked tons about what was wrong with the line. In terms of how to fix it, I dunno how rational it would've been for someone who's not actually on the inside coaching to start expecting Connor to make big changes to his game. Very happy that that's what happened obviously, but I think it's weird to feel like it validates some kind of "faith" people had in the line while it was middling.

Like... you were never arguing "hey just wait a coach will come in and cause C and S to change how they play in the D-zone and the line will come good". You were saying the line was actually already good and we just didn't have the eyes to see it. IMHO Connor has taken a big step to make the line work.

 

[snowkiddin]

Who knows. Maybe Arniel has a different communication style than Bones


I think you're overstating how bad the top line was. Essentially they were a saw off at 5v5, which i still think the org was happy with

People make it sound like they were getting outscored 66-33 instead of 51-49

Evidently, the organization was happy with that.

There were other issues too, other than the first line being outplayed (or a saw-off — which IMO still isn’t ideal for your top line, especially when Lowry’s line was often playing against the other team’s top line) — depth scoring/issues with the second line, etc. I just found it odd that we never deviated from the top line despite all that. Was it the difference between a first round exit and advancing? Probably not. I just wonder if there was more meat on the bone that we didn’t explore.

 

[KingBogo]

Another part of it I wonder if their shifts are shorter. They are still pretty long. Especially in ot vs la, but, they know the team goes as they go.

Agreed, but as you say they know they are the main offensive drivers.

 

[Nolan Giesbrecht]

He is an arrogant ass and so are alot of their fans .

I’m with you on the fans, guess I don’t pay enough attention to him though

 

[Buffdog]

People talked tons about what was wrong with the line. In terms of how to fix it, I dunno how rational it would've been for someone who's not actually on the inside coaching to start expecting Connor to make big changes to his game. Very happy that that's what happened obviously, but I think it's weird to feel like it validates some kind of "faith" people had in the line while it was middling.

Like... you were never arguing "hey just wait a coach will come in and cause C and S to change how they play in the D-zone and the line will come good". You were saying the line was actually already good and we just didn't have the eyes to see it. IMHO Connor has taken a big step to make the line work.

For the record, I never said the line was good. I said that the org wanted them and the Lowry line to play vs other teams top players, hold their own and have the Ehlers line beat soft match ups.

I think the biggest reason that line is better this season is because of a couple of tactical changes that Arniel has instituted over Bone's system. I'm curious if you'd be able to identify them

 

[Adam da bomb]

For the record, I never said the line was good. I said that the org wanted them and the Lowry line to play vs other teams top players, hold their own and have the Ehlers line beat soft match ups.

I think the biggest reason that line is better this season is because of a couple of tactical changes that Arniel has instituted over Bone's system. I'm curious if you'd be able to identify them

It seems kc is playing lower in our zone.