Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Part 20 - Second line centre edition?

[MtlSars]

Why would you expect a "Couturier type of progression"? How many players go through that type of development curve? It's really rare...

Not really that rare, I'll give you a lot of examples after im done work but essentially the data welook for his production pre 21 years old.

You look at a guy like Scheifle (not that KK will ever be PPG player) and prior to 21 he wasn't really in the NHL but playing junior and it still took him a solid 3-4 years to grow to the player he is today .

Hes born in 93 and his breakout season was 2015-2016 , which is still 3 years for KK to reach that threshold...

better examples to come...

 

[Heffyhoof]

Why would you expect a "Couturier type of progression"? How many players go through that type of development curve? It's really rare...

How many players go through a development curve where they struggle their first few years, start putting it together, then at around 25ish break out into the player they were projected to be? Almost every single player in the league who isn't a sublime talent

 

[Saundies]

His dad appears to have contracted cancer. Thinking of the kid today.

 

[417]

I think we would be more open to playing him with more opportunity if we were not trying to ice a mature roster trying to make the playoffs and we could live with him learning on the job in an increased role.

If no moves are made, Ducharme is forced to play him more which might be what fans are wanting

Playing Kotkaniemi and making the playoffs don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

 

[417]

When he'll show he can be counted on as an impact player?...
When he shows the ability to produce at a modest 0.5PPG rate?...
... when he even directly feeds a teammate a scoring chance in the offensive zone?...

I mean, they sure didn't hesitate to give accrued responsibilities to Suzuki when he started to get it going. No matter which narrative KK's biggest fans are trying to push.

You didn't have to ask yourself whether Gallagher was ready for prime time; he showed it.
You didn't have to ask yourself whether Suzuki was ready for prime time; he showed it.
Right now, you don't have to wonder all that much if Caufield is ready for prime time; he's showing it.

And before saying I have an agenda, I was one of Caufield's most vocal doubters this spring as to whether we were rushing him or not.

It's just unfair to come ahead and say "well all of these players had opportunities to show their worth". Most of them didn't have Josh Andersons or Tyler Toffolis to work with before establishing themselves as impact players. You could just see it.

How does a player show he’s an impact player…when he’s never trusted IN high leverage situations?

Actually…never is a strong word, they have a handful of times, most notably last year during the bubble where he also happened to be tied or team lead in goal scoring.

I swear…some of you act like Kotkaniemi Is the one playing 18 mins a game and producing zero offense

 

[417]

Tell me what he has improved?

If you don’t think he has improved in 3 years, I can already tell how this conversation is going to go.

all good…I think it’s way too early to throw in the towel in a 21 year old who was rushed to the NHL.

but hey…To each his own

 

[Tyson]

KK entering his 4th year...its time to show something

 

[CauZuki]

KK entering his 4th year...its time to show something

Let me say it in a different way, he's 21 years old now...time to produce consistently at the NHL level as a Centre , even though he's mostly played with bottom 6 players for a majority of his development time spent in the NHL. With a franchise that's known for not handling their 1st round talent appropriately.

Then we wonder why young players fail in Montreal , a big joke...

 

[Canadienna]

His dad appears to have contracted cancer. Thinking of the kid today.

Poor kid. Pretty young to be dealing with that. Hope it can be beat.

 

[salbutera]

Let me say it in a different way, he's 21 years old now...time to produce consistently at the NHL level as a Centre , even though he's mostly played with bottom 6 players for a majority of his development time spent in the NHL. With a franchise that's known for not handling their 1st round talent appropriately.

Then we wonder why young players fail in Montreal , a big joke...

Koivu never failed, neither did Markov or Gallagher, just maybe it’s on the player to make his line mates better...

 

[CauZuki]

Koivu never failed, neither did Markov or Gallagher, just maybe it’s on the player to make his line mates better...

Those players weren't in the NHL at 18/19/20...Try again please?

 

[Habs Icing]

Those players weren't in the NHL at 18/19/20...Try again please?

Nick Suzuki. Anymore excuses.

P.S. Gallagher was in the NHL at 19.

 

[Garbageyuk]

If you don’t think he has improved in 3 years, I can already tell how this conversation is going to go.

all good…I think it’s way too early to throw in the towel in a 21 year old who was rushed to the NHL.

but hey…To each his own

Was he rushed, or was he not given opportunity? Which is it? And I'm not suggesting throwing in the towel on him, but facts are facts. And nobody here can seem to tell me what he has improved without making things up, speaking in hypotheticals, or grasping at straws (i.e.,"he improved his strength and balance, but we just aren't seeing the results yet"...wtf lol, or his faceoff% going from 45% to 47% lmao).

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

Was he rushed, or was he not given opportunity? Which is it? And I'm not suggesting throwing in the towel on him, but facts are facts. And nobody here can seem to tell me what he has improved without making things up, speaking in hypotheticals, or grasping at straws (i.e.,"he improved his strength and balance, but we just aren't seeing the results yet"...wtf lol, or his faceoff% going from 45% to 47% lmao).

...or...when people are posting anything positive about his progression, you do this:

 

[Garbageyuk]

...or...when people are posting anything positive about his progression, you do this:

View attachment 459178

That's funny because you never did tell me anything. You told me to read the KK threads, which I have already done. He hasn't improved. Can't believe you're still trying to chirp at me. Back up your claims.

 

[Miller Time]

Koivu never failed, neither did Markov or Gallagher, just maybe it’s on the player to make his line mates better...

 

[Miller Time]

Nick Suzuki. Anymore excuses.

P.S. Gallagher was in the NHL at 19.

Nope.

at 19 he was in the WHL.

May 2012 he turned 20... still in the WHL.

Played his first NHL games during the 2012-13 season, closer to 21 as he played the first 36 games of that season in the AHL.

Brendan Gallagher Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

His first taste of NHL hockey came in his D+3 season,

i swear, the lengths some of you want to go to try and build some silly narrative about JKO's deficiencies is ridiculous.

 

[Zorba]

Why the face palm? Markov made millionaires out of scrap. Souray and konisarek. Koivu made everyone better.
Pacioretty made desharnais put up points
Gallagher , well he made Danualt.
If KK needs good wingers to put up points, then he’s another desharnais

 

[Garbageyuk]

Nope.

at 19 he was in the WHL.

May 2012 he turned 20... still in the WHL.

Played his first NHL games during the 2012-13 season, closer to 21 as he played the first 36 games of that season in the AHL.

Brendan Gallagher Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

His first taste of NHL hockey came in his D+3 season,

i swear, the lengths some of you want to go to try and build some silly narrative about JKO's deficiencies is ridiculous.

"Silly narrative"?? KK's lack of progress is extremely concerning. Even if we talk strictly statistically, find me another player who had zero progress 3 straight years to start their career. I'll give you one; Patrik Stefan. I don't like where KK seems to be headed. We are really going to find out this season though; it's do or die for KK this year. And if there's again zero progress and he's dealt, you guys will be here shitting all over him worse than me or the other realists ever have. I've seen this same story play out on these boards many times before with other prospects.

 

[Miller Time]

Why the face palm? Markov made millionaires out of scrap. Souray and konisarek. Koivu made everyone better.
Pacioretty made desharnais put up points
Gallagher , well he made Danualt.
If KK needs good wingers to put up points, then he’s another desharnais

age ain't nothing but a number is a great song, and a terrible take when comparing athletes

Say it with me now...
context.
matters.

 

[Zorba]

age ain't nothing but a number is a great song, and a terrible take when comparing athletes

Say it with me now...
context.
matters.

Say it with me. 200 games in the nhl and his progression is completely stagnant. were never gonna agree on this.
you love him. You think he’s doing great. Nope. I feel
Completely different. When he starts producing let me know

 

[CauZuki]

Nick Suzuki. Anymore excuses.

P.S. Gallagher was in the NHL at 19.

Gallagher was not in the NHL at 19 , he was half way to 21. Nick Suzuki is doing well no doubt but we'll see what happens without Danault taking the difficult minutes and Suzuki was still not in a comparable situation to Suzuki.

 

[Miller Time]

Say it with me. 200 games in the nhl and his progression is completely stagnant. were never gonna agree on this.
you love him. You think he’s doing great. Nope. I feel
Completely different. When he starts producing let me know

you mean like setting records for playoff goal scoring?

when your take starts considering facts instead of ungrounded narratives, let me know

 

[Zorba]

you mean like setting records for playoff goal scoring?

when your take starts considering facts instead of ungrounded narratives, let me know

4 pts in his last 30. 1 g. healthy scratc for Jake Evans cuz he couldn’t keep up with Tampa’s pace
Must be staals, his wingers and ducharmes fault. Not kotkaniemis at all. Guy is a dud so far

 

[Zorba]

Gallagher was not in the NHL at 19 , he was half way to 21. Nick Suzuki is doing well no doubt but we'll see what happens without Danault taking the difficult minutes and Suzuki was still not in a comparable situation to Suzuki.

Suzuki will be fine until teams realize kotkaniemi is really nothing and they will load up on Suzuki
Kotkaniemi should get some easy minutes