Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Part 20 - Second line centre edition?

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Byron is a 4th liner that had fluke seasons , hes fast and good defensively but hes not worth his contract . Byron had 0 leverage whatsoever he was picked from waiver.

Damn, had did St. Louis get any of those big contracts since he was on waivers, too ?

Byron's contract sucks, but it's not a huge drag.

As previously stated, he had back-to-back 20 goal seasons, he's top 10 in terms of speed in the league, maybe 5. Very good defensively yo boot.

KK has trouble skating, shows flashes of brilliance, but mostly disappointing and his value is pretty much based on potential than anything.

 

[Kriss E]

It was actually a tight checking series. Suzuki and Caufield were great. They both matched Brayden Point's production in the series (3 points), but they out-played him because they both had points in multiple games, with Caufield having a hand in both Anderson's goals, including the OT winner in game 4. Whereas Brayden Point had all his production in game 1 and didn't score a goal in the series either. Even Kucherov was held to 5 points in the series - 3 of them coming in game 1, hardly the world beater he'd been up to that point (likely injured, but everyone is banged up by that point). In fact, after game 1, both Suzuki and Caufield out-scored Kucherov as well. That's what I saw.

But you want to minimize our guys in order to prop up KK lol. "Caufield didn't even score a goal"...LOL he's a rookie and he out-played Brayden Point in the finals. The veteran issue is just the way it is, don't hold that against me; it's always been like that. It wasn't a problem for Caufield or Suzuki though.

Hilarious that you use Beaulieu as an example in the veterans vs young guys thing, just lol.

KK was absolutely a liability, and doesn't bring any veteran savvy or nuance or anything if he isn't scoring. He was struggling, and couldn't keep up with Tampa's skating. Him being a 3rd overall pick and people wanting him dressed is irrelevant - he was out of his depth, so he got benched. It's as simple as that.

Well thats cool man but you said they thrived, they didn't. Thats why I brought up goal scoring. A sniper who didn't score is "thriving", that's an odd take.
Never talked about outplaying Point, that is another discussion, and I dont give 2 shits about it.

So you're moving the goalposts now.

KK was not more of a liability than the previous guys mentioned, ya, he doesn't bring veteran experience but he has youth potential and energy, plus you want him to gain this PO experience.
He wasn't as bad you make it sound either. If anybody is trying to exaggerate things here, it ain't me.

 

[LaP]

He was singled out because he brought the least to the team. Staal and Armia were necessary along with Perry to create the cycle game that dominated other lines in the first three rounds. Getting that line going was going to be important if we wanted to overcome Tampa.

Toffoli was our leading goal scorer all year. Never an option.

Byron plays PK and wears an A. I would have been okay with him sitting, but I can see why he wasn't. Same with Gallagher. He brought very little but it wouldn't go over well in the room IMO.

KK being in or out of the lineup wouldnt have made a difference in the series at the end of the day, but there weren't a ton of options at F to swap out without hurting the key ingredients of our success and trying to give a spark.

Byron should not play pk though. He's a vastly overrated pkers in my book. Weak along the boards. Not particularly great at cuting passing angles. His only strength on pk is scoring goal on breakways not preventing them. Our pk constantly ranked toward the lower half of the league in the last couple of years outside of last year in playoffs (not in regular season) and the playoffs pk performance was largely due to goaltending. Our pk unit has not been a strength for a while now.

Damn, had did St. Louis get any of those big contracts since he was on waivers, too ?

Byron's contract sucks, but it's not a huge drag.

As previously stated, he had back-to-back 20 goal seasons, he's top 10 in terms of speed in the league, maybe 5. Very good defensively yo boot.

KK has trouble skating, shows flashes of brilliance, but mostly disappointing and his value is pretty much based on potential than anything.

Personally i think you guys overrated Byron a lot. Specially on the defensive side of things. He's an okay bottom 6 player. But he's not special. I'd take many many bottom 6 players before him if i could pick in all the league.

 

[HuGo Burner Acc]

KK was worse than everyone you mentioned, "despite the odd big goal". It would actually have been irresponsible to keep him in the line-up with the way he was playing. If they had, you guys would be crying about how they "threw him to the wolves" or something dumb like that. There is honestly no winning with you "apologists"; nothing is ever KK's fault - it's the coaches, it's his line-mates, management rushed him, on and on. Meanwhile, youngsters like Suzuki and Caufield earned their spots in the line-up and thrived in the finals. Young guys have to be clearly better than the veterans to play over them; it has always been that way and always will be. KK was not, in fact he was worse and a liability on the ice.

I mean if we're being frank, tell me the real reason KK got pulled out of the lineup. Tell me who was the liability for the first few games of the finals (which line was on the ice for the most GA). All this talk about KK was taken about of the lineup because he was the biggest liability is revisionist history. Again I'll ask, why do you think he was taken out of the lineup in the final?

 

[Habs Icing]

Not a big fan of his game or progression so far but like stated several times already, he's only 21. In my opinion, he hasn't shown anything specific in his game to make me think he will become a top 6 player. He might be 21 but his progression curve hasn't gone up in 3 years. I think his biggest flaws are his skating/balance and decision making with the puck. If MB doesn't make anymore move regarding our center situation, KK better needs to step up big time. He will have a golden opportunities at 2nd C, with really good wingers he really have no excuse. I don't want to spund negative or pessimist but I don't think the team will give him 2nd C responsibility or if he does, he won't last long.

Unless there's a trade in the works, KK is your #2 C and that means the Habs won't make the playoffs.
Suzuki
KK
Evans
Poehling/Paquette/Perrault
You remove Suzuki from that list and that is a laughable center corps.

 

[Chr1s97]

Well he spent most of his TOI with either/both Toffoli and/or Anderson.
So not really scrubs, no

Not sure where that narrative came from either lol

Exatcly. People make it seem like he was playing on the 4th line averaging 8-9min a games with 2 AHL'er wingers.
False.
KK was put in situation to succed offensively. He played alot of minutes with good wingers at 5v5 & was on the 2nd unit PP almost all year.
People have to stop blaming everybody for his low offensive contribution(the coach, the systems, the lines, his TOI, etc.) and they also have to stop disminished
At the end of the day its on him to find his game and show progression and prove that he deserved to be 2nd C not on nobody else. The kid had all the opportunity to show what he can do and he still have did it.

 

[Chr1s97]

Exatcly. People make it seem like he was playing on the 4th line averaging 8-9min a games with 2 AHL'er wingers.
For me he dont deserve hoffman at the start off the year.
False.
KK was put in situation to succed offensively. He played alot of minutes with good wingers at 5v5 & was on the 2nd unit PP almost all year.
People have to stop blaming everybody for his low offensive contribution(the coach, the systems, the lines, his TOI, etc.) and they also have to stop disminished
At the end of the day its on him to find his game and show progression and prove that he deserved to be 2nd C not on nobody else. The kid had all the opportunity to show what he can do and he still have did it.

 

[Dondini]

Unless there's a trade in the works, KK is your #2 C and that means the Habs won't make the playoffs.
Suzuki
KK
Evans
Poehling/Paquette/Perrault
You remove Suzuki from that list and that is a laughable center corps.

Unless there's a trade in the works, KK is your #2 C and that means the Habs won't make the playoffs.
Suzuki
KK
Evans
Poehling/Paquette/Perrault
You remove Suzuki from that list and that is a laughable center corps.

meh KK is the only question mark at 2C. Evans and the 4th line options are really good for 3rd and 4th lines. Maybe KK just another 3C but we have really good winger depth for the season. I don’t see it as much of a problem as you do but I get the case you are trying to present.

 

[417]

I’ll continue to say that the issue with Kotkaniemi is mostly perception and a lack of patience.

Again, in a not so distant alternate universe…this would have been his rookie season, and the same people calling him a bust now, would be calling him the next big thing.

He’s coming along slowly but surely IMO

 

[Deebs]

I’ll continue to say that the issue with Kotkaniemi is mostly perception and a lack of patience.

Again, in a not so distant alternate universe…this would have been his rookie season, and the same people calling him a bust now, would be calling him the next big thing.

He’s coming along slowly but surely IMO

I'm a KK fan and believe he'll be a good NHL'er going forward but he has to start putting up points this year. He doesn't need to be a 60 point guy right now but 40 should be accomplished, especially if he stays in that #2 hole with PP time.

 

[Habs Halifax]

People don't want to give a 2.8m for 3 years bridge to KK but they want to give 3.4m for 4 years to Armia and some people here are okay with Paul Byron contract.

This board man. He's 21.

I'd offer KK $3M as a max 3 AAV for 3 years. I feel 3 years should be the target on KK... Overlap the timing of when you got to sign the kids. Don't project it to happen all in one off season. Next off season is Suzuki, Romanov, and Evans. Then Caufield the following offseason and probably Poehling as well if they give him a 1 year deal. Push KK to the year after.

Also, Armia and Byron as UFA years don't fit in the KK as a RFA narrative

 

[Habs Halifax]

I’ll continue to say that the issue with Kotkaniemi is mostly perception and a lack of patience.

Again, in a not so distant alternate universe…this would have been his rookie season, and the same people calling him a bust now, would be calling him the next big thing.

He’s coming along slowly but surely IMO

I think KK will be a very good top 6 forward but the question is a matter of when. His development path is not like Suzuki or Caufield. He's got a big frame that he needs to fill into. Different type of player than the other two

 

[dinodebino]

Sooo, as he been traded yet?

 

[Apfel Struble]

Regarding KK at 2C, this is somewhat of a transition year for the Habs where missing the playoffs would not be tragedy whatsoever. Looking at the current roster and prospects situation, the Habs cup window should begin in the 2023-2024 season if everything goes well as Suzuki and Caufield would be in their prime, Romanov being more seasoned, key vets still under contract and Guhle/Norlinder hopefully beginning to make an impact

For that window to happen, we need to see what we have in Kotkaniemi and if he can become that physical 2-way second center

As such, I would give him the full responsibilities of the 2-way center that the Habs need him to become and assess what we have in him next season. We can actually afford to miss the playoffs next year, the Atlantic is going to be a bloodbath and several metro teams added. What we need to see is development of the next core: Suzuki, Caufield, Kotkaniemi, Poehling, Romanov and try to make the playoffs with them and a nice cast of veteran support on the wings and on defence

If we get 40-45 points and good 2-way play in a full season out of KK, I would be satisfied

 

[willzyix]

Byron should not play pk though. He's a vastly overrated pkers in my book. Weak along the boards. Not particularly great at cuting passing angles. His only strength on pk is scoring goal on breakways not preventing them. Our pk constantly ranked toward the lower half of the league in the last couple of years outside of last year in playoffs (not in regular season) and the playoffs pk performance was largely due to goaltending. Our pk unit has not been a strength for a while now.

Sure, but our PK was amazing in the playoffs. Why mess with something that's been a strength?

 

[Garbageyuk]

I mean if we're being frank, tell me the real reason KK got pulled out of the lineup. Tell me who was the liability for the first few games of the finals (which line was on the ice for the most GA). All this talk about KK was taken about of the lineup because he was the biggest liability is revisionist history. Again I'll ask, why do you think he was taken out of the lineup in the final?

Because he's a poor skater, and was having serious trouble keeping up with Tampa's skating and pace. And yes, he was a liability.

 

[Be a Hab]

He played the most with Anderson and Drouin... which is exactly the same linemates Suzuki started the year with by the way. So much for the narrative that Suzuki got favorable opportunities.

He's had one of the 2 best goal scorers of the team on his line most of the time. I wonder what people expect.

I don't think anyone is debating you that at this point, Suzuki has a higher celling than KK.

 

[Be a Hab]

KK needs to gain lower body strength. If he accomplishes that, I think he will be ok.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

Because he's a poor skater, and was having serious trouble keeping up with Tampa's skating and pace. And yes, he was a liability.

...and was still ten times better than The Ghost of Staalsy Past was, yet he played every damn game...that was some great roster management, I tell ya...

 

[BaseballCoach]

You’re still being very generous. He hasn’t signed yet because Bergevin isn’t in a hurry. 3 million is still too much for this guy at the moment
He will probably get 5 million over 2 years.

Why? His one-year deal without arbitration rights is probably at $1M. A second year at $2M brings you to $1.5M AAV and a third year at $3M would drive the AAV up to $2M for three years.

 

[Zorba]

Regarding KK at 2C, this is somewhat of a transition year for the Habs where missing the playoffs would not be tragedy whatsoever. Looking at the current roster and prospects situation, the Habs cup window should begin in the 2023-2024 season if everything goes well as Suzuki and Caufield would be in their prime, Romanov being more seasoned, key vets still under contract and Guhle/Norlinder hopefully beginning to make an impact

For that window to happen, we need to see what we have in Kotkaniemi and if he can become that physical 2-way second center

As such, I would give him the full responsibilities of the 2-way center that the Habs need him to become and assess what we have in him next season. We can actually afford to miss the playoffs next year, the Atlantic is going to be a bloodbath and several metro teams added. What we need to see is development of the next core: Suzuki, Caufield, Kotkaniemi, Poehling, Romanov and try to make the playoffs with them and a nice cast of veteran support on the wings and on defence

If we get 40-45 points and good 2-way play in a full season out of KK, I would be satisfied

You Just described Danualt. Kotkaniemi is 3 OA pick. If those stats are satisfactory then the habs will be a bubble team for years to come

 

[Naslund]

KK will be fine. Clearly, he was rushed to the NHL, and that was not so good. However, it's impossible to look at the playoffs and not feel that he will be very good player for us down the road. BTW, he scored more 5vs5 goals than Caufield (2) or Suzuki (4, if you remove empty-net goals) in the playoffs... At the moment, KK looks sometime awkward on the ice (e.g. falling for no apparent reason), and this is affecting the perception of the fans. Also, I don't think he has the same natural talent as Caufield and Suzuki. However, I still feel that he will be our most important player moving forward. Very special combination of size, smart, shooting abilities (yes, he needs to shoot faster), and passing.

Getting stronger, faster and more balanced will make a world of difference for KK. He is just not physically ready to play the game that will make him a difference-maker.

 

[Garbageyuk]

...and was still ten times better than The Ghost of Staalsy Past was, yet he played every damn game...that was some great roster management, I tell ya...

Yeah idk, KK still couldn't outscore "The Ghost of Staalsy Past" and I saw Staal make some defensive plays throughout the playoffs that are just beyond KK at this point in time. Staal also brings leadership and experience, and was playing a bottom-6 role. KK isn't suited for a bottom-6 role, and wasn't good enough to play in the top-6. That was probably the coaches' rational. Kind of makes sense, doesn't it? I mean, if you put aside the "OMG he was a 3rd overall pick; he needs to play!!!!!!!" argument...

 

[Habby4Life]

It will be official after this season that he is a BUST. KK where offense goes to die.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

Yeah idk, KK still couldn't outscore "The Ghost of Staalsy Past" and I saw Staal make some defensive plays throughout the playoffs that are just beyond KK at this point in time. Staal also brings leadership and experience, and was playing a bottom-6 role. KK isn't suited for a bottom-6 role, and wasn't good enough to play in the top-6. That was probably the coaches' rational. Kind of makes sense, doesn't it? I mean, if you put aside the "OMG he was a 3rd overall pick; he needs to play!!!!!!!" argument...

...that's just bullshyte; Staal brought NOTHING on the ice that Kotkaniemi wasn't better at and that incudes any defensive play or assignments...if you put aside the "he's not a superstar yet despite being a 21 year old rushed prospect" argument...