Tribute Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Goodbye and Good Luck part II

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Catanddogguitarrr

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While I know you are no fan of KK, I am with you here....

Kid is gone so best of luck and hope things work out for you in Carolina.
6,1 M playing a position he sucks in a 3rd line, well, good luck with him. For now, JK is in an honeymoon pink cloud but wait in january when his low production get Canes frustrated and bashing their coach, gm and owner.
 

Tourist

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Nov 26, 2014
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Can't argue with that.

I think drafting/development has a lot of luck involved but there is also something wrong with the way our current administration does it.

True that.

I know everything MB says in front of cameras should be taken with a grain of salt but one thing he's mentioned repeatedly and that I agreed with is that he'd never seen a prospect's development hurt by taking it slow. I really thought he would almost systematically choose the long path approach much like Detroit use to do it over shortcuts. Sometimes he did it and sometimes he didn't.

Looking back, I could be wrong but it feels like all the youngsters we've rushed early stalled. How MB messed this up specifically with the most important prospect based on draft position is borderline unforgivable.
 
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Goalfield13

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Totally agree... But now, we're back to square one at C. Let's say Dvorak is a Danault with a "certain" offensive side. Which puts him at 2C... Big question mark for 3C. Lots of pressure on Evans who has some talent but is fragile. Maybe Poehling will emerge as a solution... A big maybe.

Square one was Danault at 1C. We are far away from that now.
 
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Colezuki

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Square one was Danault at 1C. We are far away from that now.
I think the guy your quoting doesn't remember what life prior to suzuki was like, basically praying someone suddenly becomes an actual top 6 center or trading the entire team to get one. Danault wasn't even our #1C until 2018/2019, with nothing behind him, now it's at least a little meatier. People forget just four years ago (17-18) this was our center depth.

G-A-PT

Galchenyuk (who now 3 other teams don't see as a center) 19-32-51
Plekanec (Who finished the year with Toronto) 6-20-26 (with toronto)
Shaw 10-10-20
Froese 4-8-11
Byron (who had to play pitch hitter when shaw got injured)

I'd argue our center depth now compared to 4 years ago is night and day with DVO being better then everyone four years ago. On top of having Suzuki pushing everyone down and slotting everyone correctly
Suzuki - 70+ Pts
Dvorak - 40-60pts
Evans/Perrault/Paquette/Poehling 25 pts (whoever plays 3/4)
 
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le_sean

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Ppl says constantly Dvo is Danault's replacement. I don't think so. Evans is Danault's replacement and Dvorak replace the player Kotkaniemi was supposed to become in 3 years. If Evans or the other centers (Poeh, Paqu and Perreault) does not fill the shut down role, Habs are in trouble because the lines of Suzuki and Dvo will have to take that role. It might make them tired at the end of the season and their offensive game will suffer. The D will suffer too if none of the Ev, Poe, Paq or Per can play the shut down role Dano was doing.

Regular season Dvorak is Danault’s replacement. But the playoff Danault role (shadow players and provide no offence) can be taken on by Evans.
 
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CHfan1

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Kotkaniemi made bad decisions listening to his dad as his dad trained him. He should have hired professional trainers like Gary Roberts.

Now he listened to his agent.

personally I think he made bad decisions signing he could have been part of the young core Suzuki Caufield Kotkaniemi Romanov. Now he’s just another NHL player.

one day he’ll look back and realize he had sometime here. He needed time to develop. He’s still young 21.

He did hire professional trainers before the playoff bubble in the 2020 offseason, probably a good reason he came back stronger and played well in August of 2020.

I also don’t know how people can blame him for taking a contract that was 2-3 times his worth. It’s the same thing for anyone mad at Danault who left for the Kings because he was ready to move on from the Habs organization. That’s how free agency works.

 

Sorinth

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I think the guy your quoting doesn't remember what life prior to suzuki was like, basically praying someone suddenly becomes an actual top 6 center or trading the entire team to get one. Danault wasn't even our #1C until 2018/2019, with nothing behind him, now it's at least a little meatier. People forget just four years ago (17-18) this was our center depth.

G-A-PT

Galchenyuk (who now 3 other teams don't see as a center) 19-32-51
Plekanec (Who finished the year with Toronto) 6-20-26 (with toronto)
Shaw 10-10-20
Froese 4-8-11
Byron (who had to play pitch hitter when shaw got injured)

I'd argue our center depth now compared to 4 years ago is night and day with DVO being better then everyone four years ago. On top of having Suzuki pushing everyone down and slotting everyone correctly
Suzuki - 70+ Pts
Dvorak - 40-60pts
Evans/Perrault/Paquette/Poehling 25 pts (whoever plays 3/4)

Danault was our #1 center starting in 2016-2017 when he played alongside Pacioretty & Radulov.

In 17-18 our centers depth was Drouin-Danault-Plekanec. Which probably had similar level of hype to this year.

And heading into the 19-20 season the hype for our center depth was very high. Domi had just put up over 70 points, Danault was in his prime as a 2-way guy, and Kotkaniemi looked like he would be a top-6 center in no time. It ended up somewhat of a mirage, but it can happen just as easily with this current group.
 
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Habs Halifax

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Danault was our #1 center starting in 2016-2017 when he played alongside Pacioretty & Radulov.

In 17-18 our centers depth was Drouin-Danault-Plekanec. Which probably had similar level of hype to this year.

And heading into the 19-20 season the hype for our center depth was very high. Domi had just put up over 70 points, Danault was in his prime as a 2-way guy, and Kotkaniemi looked like he would be a top-6 center in no time. It ended up somewhat of a mirage, but it can happen just as easily with this current group.

Danault starting on LW for the 16/17 season and moved his way up as the season went along. By the end of that season he was probably the #1C yes. But not at the beginning

17/18 season?
* Drouin playing center for the 1st time vs Suzuki ?
* Danault vs Dvorak is fair
* Over the hill Pleky vs Evans?

Not sure I see any value to comparing hype for that 17/18 season to now. It has different context other than Danault vs Dvorak.
 

Catanddogguitarrr

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Regular season Dvorak is Danault’s replacement. But the playoff Danault role (shadow players and provide no offence) can be taken on by Evans.
I guess because regular season is so different. Matthews don't score goals in regular seaon so no need to shut him down. Evans proved so far he can take Phil's role, it's so obvious, there is no debate here.
 

Sorinth

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Danault starting on LW for the 16/17 season and moved his way up as the season went along. By the end of that season he was probably the #1C yes. But not at the beginning

17/18 season?
* Drouin playing center for the 1st time vs Suzuki ?
* Danault vs Dvorak is fair
* Over the hill Pleky vs Evans?

Not sure I see any value to comparing hype for that 17/18 season to now. It has different context other than Danault vs Dvorak.

I mean Drouin as our #1 center put up more points then Suzuki or Dvorak have done in their careers so far. It didn't work out for us but when people are putting Suzuki down for 70 points it's worth mentioning that people were doing the same thing with Drouin. An over the hill Plekanec that put up 28 points, which is production that Evans hasn't come close to.

The OP's claim was people don't remember what it was like pre-Suzuki, but it's actually pretty much the same as now we are hoping our next great young center who is poised for a breakout season actually breaks out and becomes that #1 center. And thanks to Domi, we probably will want to see that breakout season sustained over a couple years.
 

Habs Halifax

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I mean Drouin as our #1 center put up more points then Suzuki or Dvorak have done in their careers so far. It didn't work out for us but when people are putting Suzuki down for 70 points it's worth mentioning that people were doing the same thing with Drouin. An over the hill Plekanec that put up 28 points, which is production that Evans hasn't come close to.

The OP's claim was people don't remember what it was like pre-Suzuki, but it's actually pretty much the same as now we are hoping our next great young center who is poised for a breakout season actually breaks out and becomes that #1 center. And thanks to Domi, we probably will want to see that breakout season sustained over a couple years.

In terms of point production yes (Drouin vs Suzuki) but not in terms of trusted ability at center. Drouin was coming off a 52 pts season I believe (playing wing) and Suzuki has been more stable.

Pre-Suzuki, it was bad. Loosing Danault/KK hurts but we added Dvorak. I feel that we have better age and proven results with our "hope" in the centers this season vs others before.

I feel our wingers are a team strength and they should help out our centers. I would say we have a 2A/2B situation with Suzuki and Dvorak. And then we have Evans who gained a lot of momentum last season. Personally, I rather look at the sum of all parts. Solid wingers who can shoot and pretty much all of them are mature aside from Caufield. That's not something we had before so that does help out the center position IMO.
 

le_sean

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Oct 21, 2006
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I guess because regular season is so different. Matthews don't score goals in regular seaon so no need to shut him down. Evans proved so far he can take Phil's role, it's so obvious, there is no debate here.

It’s not like Phil did much to shut Matthews down in the regular season.
 

Goalfield13

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Aug 31, 2021
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People forget just four years ago (17-18) this was our center depth.

G-A-PT

Galchenyuk (who now 3 other teams don't see as a center) 19-32-51
Plekanec (Who finished the year with Toronto) 6-20-26 (with toronto)
Shaw 10-10-20
Froese 4-8-11
Byron (who had to play pitch hitter when shaw got injured)

My God...
 

Skip Bayless

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First thing first, for the record, I loved KK as a rookie, his first season blew me away and I was certain we hit the jack pot with the pick. We all know his development kind of stalled for various reasons over the next two seasons, culminating with getting benched in the playoffs despite his pretty good offensive contribution.

That said, potential aside, one thing that makes me feel okay about KK leaving is the following : KK is *currently* really subpar at making high percentage plays. While he has good vision and positioning, he takes way too long to make decisions with the puck. This is compounded by the fact that he infamously falls down a lot. This means that a way too many plays die whenever KK touches the puck (or is about to get control of the puck).

This means that current KK is subpar at driving the play, he is subpar at puck transition from the d zone to the o zone. He is subpar at distributing the puck in an offensive setting (PP for example).

While his tool kit allows him to still get points, these short comings will most definitely get a young player to the doghouse fast. A lot of posters that are focused on potential will not like it, but coaches and GMs consider players that are consistently good at high percentage plays somewhat more valuable than players that struggle at these high percentage plays, even if they can manage to get more points. As someone who played hockey all my life, I kind of agree with this philosophy.

Obviously this wouldn't apply to a very high output offensive guy like say, Hoffman, Galchenyuk or Ryder back in the days, but even then, as we know, these kind of players can eventually wear out their welcomes when they break up too many plays with their bad decisions. On the other hand, the higher the offensive output, the higher is the chance that a player is smart with the puck, but there are still "one trick ponies" that only have amazing shots or are only good at PP puck distribution.

Hockey is a game of bounces and solid transitioning and low turnover count is crucial especially at the NHL level. Smart players that can make efficient plays despite not being the most skilled guy in the world will just add up to a smoother overall puck control for the whole team. You don't necessarily need a team full of Datsyuk, Crosby ect. to have good puck control if your bottom 9 is full of guys that are good at high percentage plays.

As for KK, can he improve this side of his game?I was getting worried myself last season. This was a part of his game that did not improve at all during his first 3 seasons. Again, when you add this to his propensity to fall over, then it gets pretty worrying in my humble opinion. I thought that the falling over thing, he could eventually fix it. But his "puck smarts" just seemed worryingly close to his ceiling. Again, this is my personal non educated guess of course. I view these things with the lenses of a someone that plays hockey... I am not a coach nor a scout! :D
Probably one of the best posts I’ve read in this place lately.
 
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sandviper

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Jan 26, 2016
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6,1 M playing a position he sucks in a 3rd line, well, good luck with him. For now, JK is in an honeymoon pink cloud but wait in january when his low production get Canes frustrated and bashing their coach, gm and owner.

I don't disagree with you at all. What I'm saying next isn't directed to you or anyone in particular.

It's not that I don't care. I did like the kid as a Hab and don't have a problem with him as a player in general. Just that he's no longer a Hab and this was a good-bye thread, but haters seem to want to fire off a bunch of parting shots. That's fine, to each their own, but some are really long winded.

Plus, we still have the actual KK discussion thread plus the offer sheet thread. Also have Dvorak's own thread.
 
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Catanddogguitarrr

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It’s not like Phil did much to shut Matthews down in the regular season.
In fact, nobody can shut down Matthews in regular season. AM is a generational phenomenal, despite what his haters will say. But Phil did shut him down in PO. And Phil shut down McDavid and Drasaitle in regular season. It's not a perfect score in shut down role but it's elite nhl in that role.
 
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