Value of: Jeff Petry

[Empoleon8771]

You may be able to trade him for future consideration or a late pick, if you are lucky, like Pacioretty... He's old and slowing down.

Pacioretty was traded for nothing because Vegas literally had to clear out money. Vegas was like $8 million over the cap last off-season and was in an atrocious negotiating position to clear out money.

It's the same reason why McDonagh was basically traded for nothing last year, Tampa Bay just had to clear out money and had no leverage in the trade negotiations.

 

[pth2]

...
More likely to me if Petry is moved. It'd be as a quasi "cap dump". Or a "cap offset" if you will. One of those guys who doesn't necessarily have "negative value" in a deal...but doesn't have huge positive value either. They just get used as a significant contract to move money the other way to make room for something else. Or offset cap risks to a different sizeable or questionmark deal coming back the other way.
...

I think he's worth more than just an "offset", but trade and cap value these days end up linked, since cap room is tight all over the place.

The Habs getting Matheson was, for me, beyond our wildest expectations.... but it also meant the deal was roughly cap-neutral, whereas the 2nd round pick I was hoping for would've meant having cap room to make other deals.

Fact is though, a team like PIT in win-now mode is where he needs to be, unless his play drops off to the point that he could only be a mentor for younger players on a team not yet ready to seriously contend (Buffalo or Ottawa, for example)

 

[pth2]

There is a very vocal section of Penguins fans who just insist Petry sucks for pretty much no reason. The reason this thread was made was because the OP was arguing that Petry's value was "nothing, bordering on negative" on the Penguins board.

I think it's mostly that:

1. Petry was a more well rounded, jack of all trades type of defensemen for the Penguins last year. Another way you can describe that? Boring without any clearly definable good traits.
2. Penguins fans hate Hextall so much that they'll shit talk even the players Hextall acquired.

Well, this isn't a new thing, look at how many people thought he wouldn't fetch anything for Montreal. I think on HF anyone over 30 is seen as being over the hill and will be a cap anchor.

 

[biturbo19]

I think he's worth more than just an "offset", but trade and cap value these days end up linked, since cap room is tight all over the place.

The Habs getting Matheson was, for me, beyond our wildest expectations.... but it also meant the deal was roughly cap-neutral, whereas the 2nd round pick I was hoping for would've meant having cap room to make other deals.

Fact is though, a team like PIT in win-now mode is where he needs to be, unless his play drops off to the point that he could only be a mentor for younger players on a team not yet ready to seriously contend (Buffalo or Ottawa, for example)

Yeah. There are a lot of different ways that you could potentially slice a Petry deal. But i think you hit the nail on the head with the fact that at some point...you have to look at the cap reality. Most deals for big contracts have to have cap offset elements. Which side of that equation a guy ends up on depends on the deal. But Petry at his age with that contract, isn't a guy that teams are going to go out and spend a bunch of assets to clear the room just to bring in his whole contract without something significant coming back the other way.


But to me, it's more likely Petry if he gets moved, is the "cap offset" part of some deal for another significant contract. Not a pure dump that you have to pay to move...but one of those guys that might actually offer some utility to the other team (or additional value to retain and flip), and kind of has to be thrown in to make the cap work.

You just don't see many 35/36 year old $6.25M defencemen moved straight up anywhere without cap considerations thrown in. Whether his contract is the consideration, or whether that means something else a bit iffy coming back to Pittsburgh...you can't really consider the "value" of moving a player+contract like that without considering the cap implications necessary to make it happen, and how that impacts raw "value" in a vacuum.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You just don't see many 35/36 year old $6.25M defencemen moved straight up anywhere without cap considerations thrown in. Whether his contract is the consideration, or whether that means something else a bit iffy coming back to Pittsburgh...you can't really consider the "value" of moving a player+contract like that without considering the cap implications necessary to make it happen, and how that impacts raw "value" in a vacuum.

Didn't that happen last year with the Burns trade? Granted the return was pretty mild, but it did happen about a year ago.

 

[Djp]

Pacioretty was traded for nothing because Vegas literally had to clear out money. Vegas was like $8 million over the cap last off-season and was in an atrocious negotiating position to clear out money.

It's the same reason why McDonagh was basically traded for nothing last year, Tampa Bay just had to clear out money and had no leverage in the trade negotiations.

how many teams have the $6M+ in cap space to take on his salary Who is not in pure rebuilding mode. Maybe 4 or 5.

that limits thr market considerably.

add to that the 15+ or so other teams wanting to create cap space Looking to unload $4M+ multi year contracts.

Getting quality assets back is a pipe dream.

 

[biturbo19]

Didn't that happen last year with the Burns trade? Granted the return was pretty mild, but it did happen about a year ago.

I didn't say never. There are always outlier trades. But even with that one...it was absolutely not the full value of Burns contract. He was moved with almost $3M of retention for...basically nothing. A late 3rd round pick more or less. They were more or less giving him away because they found a team that would even take a significant portion of his contract.

I think Burns is also still the more effective player. So that really just reinforces the cap implications and what that can do to the "value" of a player like Petry. Still effective...but when age and a big cap hit combine, especially with trade protections...the value isn't gonna be much. Not without major retention, or significant questionable cap moving the other way.

 

[biturbo19]

how many teams have the $6M+ in cap space to take on his salary Who is not in pure rebuilding mode. Maybe 4 or 5.

that limits thr market considerably.

add to that the 15+ or so other teams wanting to create cap space Looking to unload $4M+ multi year contracts.

Getting quality assets back is a pipe dream.

Yeah. The McDonagh deal is another that reinforces the issue with Petry's real world "value". They basically gave him away for free. Despite still being a very effective player. That's just the reality of what taking a full contract like that does to value at that age.

That's why i suggested moving Petry might yield something more if he's used as a different sort of cap offset himself. But that's also still a tough deal to make, and probably not going to yield much "value" unless the contract coming back is really bad.


It's where i brought up elsewhere, the idea that he might work in something like a John Gibson trade. But i don't see Petry having any desire to go play out his last years sheltering a bunch of kids on a historically poor defensive team that would've just lost their starting goaltender. Even if it is in nice sunny California. So that nixes it as a realistic possibility. But something like that idea...if you could involve a team that he'd actually want to go to.

 

[Djp]

Yeah. The McDonagh deal is another that reinforces the issue with Petry's real world "value". They basically gave him away for free. Despite still being a very effective player. That's just the reality of what taking a full contract like that does to value at that age.

That's why i suggested moving Petry might yield something more if he's used as a different sort of cap offset himself. But that's also still a tough deal to make, and probably not going to yield much "value" unless the contract coming back is really bad.


It's where i brought up elsewhere, the idea that he might work in something like a John Gibson trade. But i don't see Petry having any desire to go play out his last years sheltering a bunch of kids on a historically poor defensive team that would've just lost their starting goaltender. Even if it is in nice sunny California. So that nixes it as a realistic possibility. But something like that idea...if you could involve a team that he'd actually want to go to.

If you get the trade closer to cap neutral then you might get value back In terms of picks or prospects.

you can go through 15 teams have find a short list of 2-3 $4M+ contracts they would like to move off their books to create cap space.

in the trade today LA game up Grans and a 2nd to unload Walker and Peterson with an included retention Because they needed the cap space.

this same tight market is going to hurt the UFA market This summer. Summer 24 could be a big UFA market teams want to have space for.

 

[Empoleon8771]

how many teams have the $6M+ in cap space to take on his salary Who is not in pure rebuilding mode. Maybe 4 or 5.

that limits thr market considerably.

add to that the 15+ or so other teams wanting to create cap space Looking to unload $4M+ multi year contracts.

Getting quality assets back is a pipe dream.

24 of 32 teams have more than $6 million in cap space right now and 16 of 32 teams have more than $12 million in cap space.

Also who said that the Penguins couldn't take any money back? The question posed in this thread is "what is Petry's hypothetical value?". Arbitrarily saying that can't include the Penguins taking money back just to limit the market and value doesn't make any sense.

If the Penguins need Petry's cap space and have to dump him without taking and money back, then sure he'd bring back basically nothing. But that's not the situation. The situation in this case is purely exploring what Petry's value could be if the Penguins decided to move him.

Yeah. The McDonagh deal is another that reinforces the issue with Petry's real world "value". They basically gave him away for free. Despite still being a very effective player. That's just the reality of what taking a full contract like that does to value at that age.

McDonagh was traded in the same context as Pacioretty, the Lightning had to clear out salary and had to take the best deal. In fact, McDonagh also had a full NTC that had to be addressed. You can't compare the trade without that context.

If you get the trade closer to cap neutral then you might get value back In terms of picks or prospects.

you can go through 15 teams have find a short list of 2-3 $4M+ contracts they would like to move off their books to create cap space.

in the trade today LA game up Grans and a 2nd to unload Walker and Peterson with an included retention Because they needed the cap space.

this same tight market is going to hurt the UFA market This summer. Summer 24 could be a big UFA market teams want to have space for.

But again, the Penguins don't need the cap space. This is a hypothetical exploring Petry's value, not talking about dumping Petry's contract to add more cap space.

Your point would be more valid regarding Granlund, who the Penguins (likely) really want to get rid of.

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

I was a fan when it looked like Montreal would be moving on from him prior to the Pens trade. I still think he's a nice compliment to a more offensive minded tandem with Power. Would Buffalo's 2nd 2nd this year and say their own 2nd next year be of any interest? That's 45OA in this draft, then something probably later than that in 2024.

Sold, and I'm not exactly looking at moving him but I'll take it.

 

[pth2]

Yeah. There are a lot of different ways that you could potentially slice a Petry deal. But i think you hit the nail on the head with the fact that at some point...you have to look at the cap reality. Most deals for big contracts have to have cap offset elements. Which side of that equation a guy ends up on depends on the deal. But Petry at his age with that contract, isn't a guy that teams are going to go out and spend a bunch of assets to clear the room just to bring in his whole contract without something significant coming back the other way.


But to me, it's more likely Petry if he gets moved, is the "cap offset" part of some deal for another significant contract. Not a pure dump that you have to pay to move...but one of those guys that might actually offer some utility to the other team (or additional value to retain and flip), and kind of has to be thrown in to make the cap work.

You just don't see many 35/36 year old $6.25M defencemen moved straight up anywhere without cap considerations thrown in. Whether his contract is the consideration, or whether that means something else a bit iffy coming back to Pittsburgh...you can't really consider the "value" of moving a player+contract like that without considering the cap implications necessary to make it happen, and how that impacts raw "value" in a vacuum.

Meh.... I could see him going for a similar-caliber player at a different position, a bit like the Matheson deal: different age players, but similar contracts, and both teams can improve. Heck, if some other team had Granlund, I'd suggest Granlund and a 2nd for him, or if he were to want to return to Montreal, he could get moved for Dvorak.

I think we're so used to taking cap space for granted that we see it as independent from abstract trade value, but these days you can't do that.... but requiring cap-even deals doesn't mean someone doesn't have value.

 

[Djp]

24 of 32 teams have more than $6 million in cap space right now and 16 of 32 teams have more than $12 million in cap space.

Also who said that the Penguins couldn't take any money back? The question posed in this thread is "what is Petry's hypothetical value?". Arbitrarily saying that can't include the Penguins taking money back just to limit the market and value doesn't make any sense.

If the Penguins need Petry's cap space and have to dump him without taking and money back, then sure he'd bring back basically nothing. But that's not the situation. The situation in this case is purely exploring what Petry's value could be if the Penguins decided to move him.



McDonagh was traded in the same context as Pacioretty, the Lightning had to clear out salary and had to take the best deal. In fact, McDonagh also had a full NTC that had to be addressed. You can't compare the trade without that context.



But again, the Penguins don't need the cap space. This is a hypothetical exploring Petry's value, not talking about dumping Petry's contract to add more cap space.

Your point would be more valid regarding Granlund, who the Penguins (likely) really want to get rid of.

check back after factoring their RFAs they need to sign and re-adjust what you think the cap space will be.

only about 5 or so will have around $5M+ space who is not rebuilding mode ( arizona, Chicago, Anaheim, San Jose) who would automatically ask for sweeteners to take something like Petry.

cap space is a real estate market. Limited supply means higher demand which means a lack of return to unload dalary.

 

[Empoleon8771]

check back after factoring their RFAs they need to sign and re-adjust what you think the cap space will be.

only about 5 or so will have around $5M+ space who is not rebuilding mode ( arizona, Chicago, Anaheim, San Jose) who would automatically ask for sweeteners to take something like Petry.

cap space is a real estate market. Limited supply means higher demand which means a lack of return to unload dalary.

Yeah, it's still more teams than you're making it out to be.

And again, who said anything about the Penguins not being able to take back money? This hypothetical is about what Petry's value would be if the Penguins decided to trade him. If that value is a 2nd and a B prospect, but it requires the Penguins to take back an overpaid #4 defensemen, that's still value.

 

[elitepete]

WAR is not real in hockey. You may as well be posting pictures of donkeys and using them to argue one player over the other.

They're literally making stuff up to get subs and clicks. They're lying.

Any time i see someone post one of those dogshit charts, their opinion goes out the window for me.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think Petry has some value. Not a 1st and likely not anything making him worth trading.

If PIT wanted to clear out cap on the RH side, Rutta makes more sense.

 

[Americanadian]

From a Leafs perspective I’d offer Samsonov and expect a 2nd or 3rd added to Petry. Include Brodie if the Pens need a D back.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

If the Pens need to trade away a Defenseman again to make the cap work the Devils are definitely interested.

Topias Vilen + 2024 3rd
for
Marcus Petterson

Hextall doesn’t work here anymore.

 

[biturbo19]

Yeah, it's still more teams than you're making it out to be.

And again, who said anything about the Penguins not being able to take back money? This hypothetical is about what Petry's value would be if the Penguins decided to trade him. If that value is a 2nd and a B prospect, but it requires the Penguins to take back an overpaid #4 defensemen, that's still value.

You still have to take that list of "teams with enough space"...index it with teams that would have no interest because they're rebuilding or whatever other reasons in their roster construction, then start crossing off what is it...15 teams that Petry can nix a trade to?

By that point...it is a much more limited market you're dealing with. Penguins lose a lot of leverage with those factors.


And sure...maybe like i suggested, if there is offsetting cap moving around...maybe that helps move things along with a trade. But it's impossible to "explore trade value" as you're suggesting, without considering what the cap implications are.

Whether that's Petry as a cap offset <---> A cap offset to make Petry palatable...There has to be a salary cap consideration involved. What that is, and which salary is moving which way <---> is going to fundamentally alter the "value" of Petry + or - from "giving him away for free" with limited cap considerations the other way, to potentially a positive value of maybe a late-2nd if there's significant other questionable money coming back the Penguins way. There's a range of different values in there with different combinations and permutations of salary moving different ways.

But there's no such thing as pure "player value" on guys with big contracts. They have their capability as a player and then they have a "contract/asset value" that's dictated by the market and cap implications.

 

[Empoleon8771]

From a Leafs perspective I’d offer Samsonov and expect a 2nd or 3rd added to Petry. Include Brodie if the Pens need a D back.

Samsonov is literally a less attractive option than just re-signing Jarry.

You still have to take that list of "teams with enough space"...index it with teams that would have no interest because they're rebuilding or whatever other reasons in their roster construction, then start crossing off what is it...15 teams that Petry can nix a trade to?

By that point...it is a much more limited market you're dealing with. Penguins lose a lot of leverage with those factors.

I mean, the Habs literally got Matheson for Petry last year though. Even with Matheson's flaws, that's pretty god damn good value for Petry.

No one was talking about what Petry's value would be if the Penguins were trying to dump his contract and open up cap space, it was just talking about Petry's value if they decided to move him. A deal where a team says "I'd pay a 2nd and a B prospect for him, but you'd have to take money back to make the money work" still has Petry with the value of a 2nd and a B prospect. Trying to make it like the only option the Penguins have is to dump him like Burns or McDonagh is disingenuous and not the case at all.

If a team wants a player, they'll pay the value and then work to get the money to work. That's literally what the Jackets just did with trading for Provorov. Like pretty much every trade involving a player making notable money has that aspect to consider.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I don't love Petry but he doesn't make sense to move. We would need a 2RD immediately.

I suppose if Dubas was enamored with Gibson and could somehow get Gibson for Petry straight up, that could be good value.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Any time i see someone post one of those dogshit charts, their opinion goes out the window for me.

It's the worst from that obnoxious jfresh Twitter account

Pens fans, obviously he hasn't returned to his top 20 in the league form that he was during 20-21 regular season? He was a really good player for us for a few seasons and unreal during that one

 

[ChaosAgent]

It's the worst from that obnoxious jfresh Twitter account

Pens fans, obviously he hasn't returned to his top 20 in the league form that he was during 20-21 regular season? He was a really good player for us for a few seasons and unreal during that one

He is pretty good. An above average 2RD who does everything fairly well, but old and highly paid. Not an issue but I think some fans want to get younger. The Pens are very, very old. Petry is old but seems movable-ish

 

[Frank Drebin]

He is pretty good. An above average 2RD who does everything fairly well, but old and highly paid. Not an issue but I think some fans want to get younger. The Pens are very, very old. Petry is old but seems movable-ish

Yeah the pens are very old. But still very good. Like Petry I guess

 

[3ladesof5teel]

You may be able to trade him for future consideration or a late pick, if you are lucky, like Pacioretty... He's old and slowing down.

Thanks for showing that you watched zero, ya none of Petry's games last year. Appreciate the opinion though

He had some unfortunate injuries last year that are not normal for him throughout his career along with many other Pens D. Consistency between them was tough to get together, 1 man down as soon as he was back his pairing partner was out.

Overall he played solid his 1st season in a new system and the team was much better with him playing