Player Discussion Jeff Gorton Part II

[SnowblindNYR]

On most good teams 50 points is a first line player. The only real exception are BOS/COL only because they play their three best players together.

TB has some combination of Cirelli/Killorn/Palat/Johnson
FLA has had Duclair on the first line most of the year
Caps either have Oshie/Wilson there
Islanders have a team of 50 point players and Barzal
Leafs have a rotating third wheel on L1 the best of which is Hyman.
EDM has had Puljujarvi L1 recently and Yamamoto at other times
VGK 1C is Chandler Stephenson

Those are the top 2 teams in every division excluding Colorado who I already mentioned.

Well, we were playing Fast (albeit not a 50 point player) on the first line last season. There's a difference between spreading the wealth and someone being a good first line player with 50 points. The point is Hayes for some reason is now seen a more positive light than he was with the Rangers even though his production is similar and Miller on the best team in the league over two seasons was a 54 point player. No one knew he'd become what he did in Vancouver. It's a lot of Monday Morning Quarterback.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

We were also playing Blackwell in our top 6, does that make him a top 6 player?

 

[LokiDog]

I don’t think there’s any argument claiming Hayes is a first line player. The point is 50 points is unrealistic to label as third line. It’s clearly top six production.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I don’t think there’s any argument claiming Hayes is a first line player. The point is 50 points is unrealistic to label as third line. It’s clearly top six production.

Ok, maybe that was an exaggeration. But I remember people lamenting about what a great player we lost when his production is exactly the same with the Flyers. People were so happy when we got a first for him. Now they're upset we lost him. I think Chytil will be the better player and Mika/Strome already are.

 

[Machinehead]

What line a guy appears on when you go to Edit Lines on NHL 21 doesn't define what they are.

 

[Machinehead]

Although, I will say this: most people overshoot the cutoff point for what a first line player is.

By definition, being 31st or higher in scoring at your position means you have to be on somebody's first line, or somebody who scored less than you does.

In the last full season (18-19), the 31st ranked center scored 64 points, 43 at left wing, and 47 at right wing.

Take that center number with an asterisk because NHL.com lists some bizarre players as centers who are decidedly not centers. This also bumps up the wing numbers a bit if you put those players in their correct positions.

Hayes, with an asterisk, was 43rd. He's not a 1C but he's right behind the 1C's.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

What proof do you have they were? You said so.

because it was Gorton who killed his trade value. What was the bad rep ADA had in September? Why wouldn't teams want him back in October?

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Although, I will say this: most people overshoot the cutoff point for what a first line player is.

By definition, being 31st or higher in scoring at your position means you have to be on somebody's first line, or somebody who scored less than you does.

In the last full season (18-19), the 31st ranked center scored 64 points, 43 at left wing, and 47 at right wing.

Take that center number with an asterisk because NHL.com lists some bizarre players as centers who are decidedly not centers. This also bumps up the wing numbers a bit if you put those players in their correct positions.

Hayes, with an asterisk, was 43rd. He's not a 1C but he's right behind the 1C's.

You have to account of players that missed time due to injury too. If someone had 40 points in 40 games, he's obviously a top line player but won't show up in the top 31 ranked centers.

 

[Machinehead]

You have to account of players that missed time due to injury too. If someone had 40 points in 40 games, he's obviously a top line player but won't show up in the top 31 ranked centers.

This is a good point.

 

[True Blue]

I don’t think there’s any argument claiming Hayes is a first line player. The point is 50 points is unrealistic to label as third line. It’s clearly top six production.

I think people stumble over their own preconceived bias on this. 50 point is not third line production. Not even a little bit. 50 points places you as a top line player. No doubt about it. Can be discussed where on the bell curve that is, but no doubt about is it a top line player. Do some teams have 50 point players as second line players? Sure. Those are teams with fairly deep top-6. But that does not change the fact that 50 points is top line production. At least as of today.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I think people stumble over their own preconceived bias on this. 50 point is not third line production. Not even a little bit. 50 points places you as a top line player. No doubt about it. Can be discussed where on the bell curve that is, but no doubt about is it a top line player. Do some teams have 50 point players as second line players? Sure. Those are teams with fairly deep top-6. But that does not change the fact that 50 points is top line production. At least as of today.

Hayes is still a dime a dozen player that everyone is losing their minds over. He's the exact same player he was with us but for some reason when we traded him we were happy and now I see all of these people lamenting the trade.

 

[True Blue]

because it was Gorton who killed his trade value. What was the bad rep ADA had in September? Why wouldn't teams want him back in October?

And the idiocy continues........

 

[True Blue]

Hayes is still a dime a dozen player that everyone is losing their minds over. He's the exact same player he was with us but for some reason when we traded him we were happy and now I see all of these people lamenting the trade.

If you consider second line centers to be a dime a dozen player, then sure.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

If you consider second line centers to be a dime a dozen player, then sure.

What changed since we traded him and everyone was ecstatic with the return?

 

[True Blue]

What changed since we traded him and everyone was ecstatic with the return?

Nothing. He is still a 2nd line player.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

because it was Gorton who killed his trade value. What was the bad rep ADA had in September? Why wouldn't teams want him back in October?

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."

 

[huerter]

Only skimmed this page but who cares about points?

 

[FireGerardGallant]

Man was gift wrapped the easiest rebuild since the blackhawks and hes fumbling it. Its calls for Dq’s head now but soon enough it’s gonna be for him too

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Man was gift wrapped the easiest rebuild since the blackhawks and hes fumbling it. Its calls for Dq’s head now but soon enough it’s gonna be for him too

I'm not sure how he's fumbling it other than having DQ as head coach. That's big though, I'll agree.

 

[FireGerardGallant]

I'm not sure how he's fumbling it other than having DQ as head coach. That's big though, I'll agree.

Yea thats the main thing however if this same bs continues under the next coach gonna be hard to not see the usage of young forwards as anything other then what the higher ups want. Hopefully I’m wrong

 

[Peltz]

Man was gift wrapped the easiest rebuild since the blackhawks and hes fumbling it. Its calls for Dq’s head now but soon enough it’s gonna be for him too

I'm not seeing many missteps here other than arguably Trouba and Kreider's contracts. I don't think anyone would argue that signing Panarin was a mistake despite being in a rebuild situation.

 

[FireGerardGallant]

I'm not seeing many missteps here other than arguably Trouba and Kreider's contracts. I don't think anyone would argue that signing Panarin was a mistake despite being in a rebuild situation.

Its really just the Dq situation and the handling of the young forwards which are hopefully two issues that are intertwined. But every passing day this guy stays around the worse it looks on the higherups imo

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Its really just the Dq situation and the handling of the young forwards which are hopefully two issues that are intertwined. But every passing day this guy stays around the worse it looks on the higherups imo

Im lukewarm on Quinn but he can't win with this fan base, guys like Fox, Chytil, Buch, Lindgren, Miller all look good under quinn yet everyone has all kinds of excuses why they would have been good anyway, problem is if he was such a poor developer of talent he would have ruined them too. I think everyone needs to relax and see that Kakko wasn't NHL ready last year, he looks much better. Lafreniere while a highly skilled talent wasnt ready for the NHL most likely due to covid times and not having a regular year and offseason but more than anything else hes still a kid. These kids are learning how to play hockey, im ok with getting another coach but this coach is teaching them how to play the whole ice, something kids dont generally pick up on until their mid twenties. If we're taking development I'm fine with this coach, if you want a coach to inflate a kids stats by playing him more with our best players thats another, id prefer the first considering we are a couple years away from being a contender. If you wanna can him for his record thats another thing

 

[True Blue]

I2 out of the last 3 1st round prospects (LA, Kravtsov) don't want to play here because of the way things are being run.

Hartford is a mess.

Have you guys seen the wreck that is Hartford recently?

And man, can you just tell how badly Karvstov does not want to play for the Rangers because of how poorly run the franchise is?

And lastly, have you seen the look of sheer joy on Andersson's face in LA? Kid just needed a change of scenery clearly

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Have you guys seen the wreck that is Hartford recently?

And man, can you just tell how badly Karvstov does not want to play for the Rangers because of how poorly run the franchise is?

And lastly, have you seen the look of sheer joy on Andersson's face in LA? Kid just needed a change of scenery clearly

Isn't Lias Andersson in the AHL right now?