Value of: Jason Zucker

[Empoleon8771]

Zucker's an offensive blackhole who's at best a 2.5M$ player paid 5.5 for another 2 years.

No one is touching that contract unless a good pick or prospect is attached to him. Period.

You're just going to double down on being wrong instead of admitting you're wrong? Okay.

But yes, you are obviously the beacon of knowledge by saying that a 4th liner who hasn't cracked 30 points in years is worth a 1st rounder.

 

[Mersss]

You're just going to double down on being wrong instead of admitting you're wrong? Okay.

But yes, you are obviously the beacon of knowledge by saying that a 4th liner who hasn't cracked 30 points in years is worth a 1st rounder.

Points aren't everything in hockey you know that right?

Zucker sucks in a top 6 role, and is terrible defensively therefore not efefctive in your bototm 6. AND is paid 5.5M$ for ANOTHER YEAR.

Lehkhnoen is everything you're looking for in a 3rd liner, and can put in at a respectable 15-15 pace while being paid 2M$ to do so.

One of them needs a 1st to get rid of, the other one would warrant a 2nd rd pick at least, probably a 2nd + decent prospect or a late 1st at the deadline.

Pens aren't gettign rid of Zucker unless taking an equally bad contract back.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Points aren't everything in hockey you know that right?

Zucker sucks in a top 6 role, and is terrible defensively therefore not efefctive in your bototm 6. AND is paid 5.5M$ for ANOTHER YEAR.

Lehkhnoen is everything you're looking for in a 3rd liner, and can put in at a respectable 15-15 pace while being paid 2M$ to do so.

One of them needs a 1st to get rid of, the other one would warrant a 2nd rd pick at least, probably a 2nd + decent prospect or a late 1st at the deadline.

Pens aren't gettign rid of Zucker unless taking an equally bad contract back.

You are aware that just repeating yourself over and over again doesn't make you correct, right?

What you're suggesting is the equivalent of me suggesting that Zach Aston-Reese is better than Drouin and Drouin is a negative value player.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Another fun fact: in the last year Lehkonen put up a 15-15 pace in a season, Zucker had 27 goal, 56 point pace and had these analytics:



But yes, Zucker is an offensive black hole while Lehkonen can bring back a 1st rounder.

 

[WesMantooth]

I'm thinking our best bet is a cap trade with a (re)building team like SEA/ARI/BUF...

Maybe one of these teams would take Zucker + 2023 2nd for a 2023 4th?

 

[3ladesof5teel]

Lehkhonen's a great PKer with great speed and strong on the forecheck.

Zucker isn't a top6 player, and is terrible defensivelly, which makes hom a 5.5M$ waste of money as he can't play on your top6, and can't shutdown the other team top line

Whos says he cant play in the top 6? He hasn't been tried with Crosby at all

He's played little with Geno because of injuries to both sides

Has he been a disappointment?.......sure but to say he cant play in a top 6 role is off.

 

[TurgPavs]

You are aware that just repeating yourself over and over again doesn't make you correct, right?

What you're suggesting is the equivalent of me suggesting that Zach Aston-Reese is better than Drouin and Drouin is a negative value player.

Yeah but he is right Zucker is a Negative Asset and its going to cost Pitt to move him. The problem that Teams are going to have this TDL, is that most owners and franchises are struggling finically, they are not a solid ground.
Where you saw teams weaponizing their cap space in the past, is going to be tough to do as they dont want to hand out 5.2 million in actual cash next season to a guy who is on the down side of his career and whose numbers have been falling off since 17-18.
They are going to have to likely take salary back and/or throw in a solid draft pick.
The issue with that is they cant trade their 2022, 2nd or 3rd, as those are conditional picks used in the Carter trade. Same with their 3rd and 4th round picks in 2023, both conditional picks.

IMO its going to be more expensive to move him then you think.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah but he is right Zucker is a Negative Asset and its going to cost Pitt to move him. The problem that Teams are going to have this TDL, is that most owners and franchises are struggling finically, they are not a solid ground.
Where you saw teams weaponizing their cap space in the past, is going to be tough to do as they dont want to hand out 5.2 million in actual cash next season to a guy who is on the down side of his career and whose numbers have been falling off since 17-18.
They are going to have to likely take salary back and/or throw in a solid draft pick.
The issue with that is they cant trade their 2022, 2nd or 3rd, as those are conditional picks used in the Carter trade. Same with their 3rd and 4th round picks in 2023, both conditional picks.

IMO its going to be more expensive to move him then you think.

Zucker probably only can be moved in a money for money swap right now. Maybe someone can take him as a reclamation project for cheap in the off-season, since he only has 1 more year after this year, but I'm not sure how easy of a sell that would be.

Zucker's issue is that he's like a $3.5 million player that makes $5.5 million. As a rental, that's probably not an issue, but that with term would be a hard sell.

This was my first post in the thread on trading Zucker.

The idea that Zucker would cost a lot to trade is completely baseless. Dadonov with more term and coming off a bad season got Holden and a 3rd rounder. I don't think the Penguins can move Zucker without taking money back right now, but that is different than "the Penguins would have to add a lot to move Zucker without taking money back right now". I just think they probably can't do that, at least not until the off-season.

My expectations for a Zucker trade would be:

-Money for money swap during the season, hopefully with the Penguins getting a rental
-Like a conditional 4th in the off-season from a cap floor team wanting to gamble on flipping him next year

 

[Jerkbait]

Would you guys trade him for Gallagher? Gally is still good and his contract is fair now, but it will age poorly IMO. I think his remaining quality years will line up with the remaining quality years for the Pens core though, then the Pens will probably have to rebuild post Crosby/Malkin/Letang and his last 2 or 3 years won't matter. Montreal is in the opposite position where his remaining good years will likely be wasted then he'll be a cap burden when we will hopefully be getting good again.

We would eat Zucker's deal and probably flip with retention next year, then give his spot to a young guy.

Simple answer is YES.

 

[Jerkbait]

Whos says he cant play in the top 6? He hasn't been tried with Crosby at all

He's played little with Geno because of injuries to both sides

Has he been a disappointment?.......sure but to say he cant play in a top 6 role is off.

He played with Crosby. He played with malkin. He played with Carter. He played with bleuger. He never played well with any of them. He is a top 6 on a weak offensive team , not a deep team. He isnt good enough defensively to be a checking line player and paid to much for 4th line. There may be a team that needs some forward depth at the deadline but options are limited.
The emergence of E rod has made zucker even more expendable. He won't be playing for the pens next season

 

[3ladesof5teel]

He played with Crosby. He played with malkin. He played with Carter. He played with bleuger. He never played well with any of them. He is a top 6 on a weak offensive team , not a deep team. He isnt good enough defensively to be a checking line player and paid to much for 4th line. There may be a team that needs some forward depth at the deadline but options are limited.
The emergence of E rod has made zucker even more expendable. He won't be playing for the pens next season

Tell me how many games he's played with Crosby?

How many with Malkin?

Sure he hasn't thrown up 30 goals but he's far from useless. And while Erods emergence has been a pleasant surprise I still need to see it from him.

 

[Jerkbait]

Tell me how many games he's played with Crosby?

How many with Malkin?

Sure he hasn't thrown up 30 goals but he's far from useless. And while Erods emergence has been a pleasant surprise I still need to see it from him.

Zuckers first audtion in Pitt was with Crosby. He actually had a couple decent games then the wheels fell off. I was at a game in Toronto where zucker played with sid and they got clobbered. Zucker was the most invisible penguin forward. He moved on to play with malkin after that and didn't gel. Kapanen took his spot with better play. He briefly played decent with Carter but again fell off...his time in Pitt is done

 

[3ladesof5teel]

Zuckers first audtion in Pitt was with Crosby. He actually had a couple decent games then the wheels fell off. I was at a game in Toronto where zucker played with sid and they got clobbered. Zucker was the most invisible penguin forward. He moved on to play with malkin after that and didn't gel. Kapanen took his spot with better play. He briefly played decent with Carter but again fell off...his time in Pitt is done

You can count on your hands how many games they played together.

I'm not arguing whether this time is up or not here.

 

[Bishop7979]

How bad do you want rid of him? Bad enough to take a dead contract from Minnesota back like Rask?

Maybe minny would take a chance on the second year thinking he'd find his game back home if the pens ate Rask for the rest of the year.

Do you cut your losses that much to free up the space?

 

[3ladesof5teel]

Yeah but he is right Zucker is a Negative Asset and its going to cost Pitt to move him. The problem that Teams are going to have this TDL, is that most owners and franchises are struggling finically, they are not a solid ground.
Where you saw teams weaponizing their cap space in the past, is going to be tough to do as they dont want to hand out 5.2 million in actual cash next season to a guy who is on the down side of his career and whose numbers have been falling off since 17-18.
They are going to have to likely take salary back and/or throw in a solid draft pick.
The issue with that is they cant trade their 2022, 2nd or 3rd, as those are conditional picks used in the Carter trade. Same with their 3rd and 4th round picks in 2023, both conditional picks.

IMO its going to be more expensive to move him then you think.

If I had a buck for every time Joe Blow on HF boards said so and so player has negative value and it turns out he doesn't and was traded for value I could quit my day job

 

[Obvious Fabertism]

How bad do you want rid of him? Bad enough to take a dead contract from Minnesota back like Rask?

Maybe minny would take a chance on the second year thinking he'd find his game back home if the pens ate Rask for the rest of the year.

Do you cut your losses that much to free up the space?

Rask’s contract ends this year, the Wild are overloaded with wings (the reason that they moved him in the first place) and are going to need to shed cap, not take on more. Zero chance the Wild look to acquire him. Good person, but not even worth considering a reacquisition.

 

[Tender Rip]

Suppose Zucker has to get back and look appealing before there is going to be much of any interest in him.
As much as I would prefer to do something else with that cap-room, this season there is probably no meaning to dealing him just for the sake of it. Certainly, if we can get no return on him, it is better to have him as depth for the playoffs. He has been snake bitten something fierce, but outside that hasn't been playing "baaad". Just... unimpressive.

But he should be off the roster for next season. With just one year to go on his deal then, that should be eminently doable.

 

[Russian Factor]

Hes basically a more overpaid Hagelin for us right now. Which isnt ideal but doesnt really hurt you all that much when youre getting elite production for cheap elsewhere. Hell Ive heard that teams that have Hagelin types in their bottom six sometimes even go on to win important games

 

[Peat]

How bad do you want rid of him? Bad enough to take a dead contract from Minnesota back like Rask?

Maybe minny would take a chance on the second year thinking he'd find his game back home if the pens ate Rask for the rest of the year.

Do you cut your losses that much to free up the space?

Tbh there's no real reason for us to trade him now unless we need cap space we can't find elsewhere. He's worth a spot on a roster and much more likely to bounce back than get worse.

Come the summer he needs gone as things stand, but that's really a job for then.

 

[McJedi]

Zuck isn’t a bad player. He’s a 0.5ppg middle-6 player who had a great contract year which led to his $5.5AAV. He’s a UFA after next season and he’s never been bad for PIT, just never found a rhythm here.

If the Pens have any chance of keeping Rust, E-Rod and Kap, Zuck has to go.

Zucker has negative value at that term and AAV. What is Pitt adding to shed that contract if not taking back a bad contract the other way? I’d suspect a Buffalo type would demand at least a 2nd rounder.

probably a trade Pitt makes in the off-season, not in season.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Would you guys trade him for Gallagher? Gally is still good and his contract is fair now, but it will age poorly IMO. I think his remaining quality years will line up with the remaining quality years for the Pens core though, then the Pens will probably have to rebuild post Crosby/Malkin/Letang and his last 2 or 3 years won't matter. Montreal is in the opposite position where his remaining good years will likely be wasted then he'll be a cap burden when we will hopefully be getting good again.

We would eat Zucker's deal and probably flip with retention next year, then give his spot to a young guy.

I'm not sure the Habs make a move like that but it's possible if they rather not trade Gallagher with retention and they would allow Gallagher to try to win a cup with someone else.

Personally, I rather retain down to $4.5M for Gallagher and get futures in return and a 1/2 cap dump.

 

[Prairie Habs]

I'm not sure the Habs make a move like that but it's possible if they rather not trade Gallagher with retention and they would allow Gallagher to try to win a cup with someone else.

Personally, I rather retain down to $4.5M for Gallagher and get futures in return and a 1/2 cap dump.

Depends on the plan moving forward. Even if you don't think the 2M of dead cap for the next 5 years after this matter, you have to consider the opportunity cost of losing a retention spot for all those seasons. I think we get better value overall by selling 3 pending UFAs at the deadline with 50% retention for a few years then we would by selling Gallagher with retention once.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Depends on the plan moving forward. Even if you don't think the 2M of dead cap for the next 5 years after this matter, you have to consider the opportunity cost of losing a retention spot for all those seasons. I think we get better value overall by selling 3 pending UFAs at the deadline with 50% retention for a few years then we would by selling Gallagher with retention once.

You won't need more than 3 retention spots in those 5 years unless you either extend or sign someone to a ridiculous contract in that same span. Are you really worried that we would need another retention spot? The other factor to this is I doubt all of Price, Gallagher, and Petry are all gone by this time next year. It's not happening overnight.

Retaining on Chiarot (if we have to for cap reasons) is a no brainer but that expires quickly.

We don't need to retain on Toffoli and Hoffman. I'm not trading Anderson unless it's an offer we can't refuse. Anderson can be with us during and after the rebuild. Keep him around to protect Suzuki and Caufield IMO.

Guys like Drouin, Byron, Eddy, Savard, Armia can be kept until they expire or traded as a UFA rental with a prorated cap hit. I don't see big problems there

One last thing... Petry has 3 years left after this year. By the time he is traded, we might only have 3 retention last for 2 years ish.

Anyways, this is a Zucker thread. Reply if you wish but lets move on from this quickly. I think we can do better in a return if we retain down to $4.5M on Gallagher.

I would be interested in this though...

* Gallagher (Retention down to $4.5M or $4M depending on the futures below)
for
* Zucker (cap dump)
* Futures (TBD)

 

[Jerkbait]

You can count on your hands how many games they played together.

I'm not arguing whether this time is up or not here.

Yes blame Sullivan cause zucker never got a fair shake LOL....I personally was at games where zucker played with Crosby and he looked brutal. I was personally at games where he played with malkin and looked horrible. A quick reference to the payoff scoresheet from last seaosn shows zucker playing with malkin as well

 

[Moose and Squirrel]

Zucker is a 20-20 middle-6 winger that brings speed and physicality, he has just completely lost his hands and goal scoring touch from when he was younger. He's generating a ton of chances himself, he's just not producing whatsoever:



He's a $3.5 million player that is paid $5.5 million. He's not a bad player whatsoever, and trying to paint him as that is objectively false.

He has actually aged in a similar manner to another former Penguins player, Chris Kunitz. In about 2015 or 2016, Kunitz seemingly lost his hands completely and went from a consistent 60+ point guy to a 40 point guy at best. His hands were completely shot and he slowed down a bit, but he was still causing havoc with his physicality and was still a pretty useful player for about 4 years after he started falling off. The big difference is that this happened to Kunitz when he was 35 while Zucker had this happen when he was 29, so there is a huge age difference there, but Zucker is and will still be an effective player for the next few years at minimum. He's just not worth what he's paid anymore, which is why his value is effectively nothing right now.

Zucker hasn't been that player for 5 yrs. that's not a fluke, that's a trend