Value of: Jake Gardiner to Edmonton

[Brobust]

No I won't. I'll end up angry if they end up trading Gardiner without getting a player back that doesn't improve our team, or atleast offset his loss.

Also I don't agree with your first point, that's what they've already been doing with Hainsey and Zaitzev, with Rielly and Gardiner being the better players on that pair.

Hopefully Dubas is a big believer in having a good team too, because trading Gardiner for what you've proposed significantly weakens us.

I have no clue what you think here. Did I offer Gardiner up for peanuts?

What did I propose? I didn't propose anything other than exploring trades for Gardiner. You act like I made a bad offer or something.

Gardiner isn't untouchable. His next contract will be one Toronto has to think about very carefully. The idea of trading Gardiner is also not some sort of insult or criticism of the player.

Boy, are people sensitive about this one guy.

 

[Dan Kelly]

Unlike Edmonton, people actually want to play in an important NHL city.
They'll sign fair to slightly below market value.

LOL @"important" ! to whom, the people living there?

 

[Kelly]

I have no clue what you think here. Did I offer Gardiner up for peanuts?

What did I propose? I didn't propose anything other than exploring trades for Gardiner. You act like I made a bad offer or something.

Gardiner isn't untouchable. His next contract will be one Toronto has to think about very carefully. The idea of trading Gardiner is also not some sort of insult or criticism of the player.

Boy, are people sensitive about this one guy.

Trading a good player to solely give a spot to a rookie that's played ~40 games. Also what team will ship off a similar RH D for Gardiner, which team would trade a better player for Gardiner? I would imagine none. That's why I don't see how it's a good idea to move him, assuming we're not going to have the benefit of dealing with a prime Chiarelli.

I'm totally fine with letting Gardiner walk if he outprices himself and we can't find a team that is willing to tango with us that at the same will help our team. I'm not interested in downgrading our team, especially on the back end.

How am I being sensitive? I'm just trying to discuss hockey, no need to resort to being a dick.

 

[Brobust]

Lol. Is this before or after your big three sign ridiculously team friendly deals because reasons?

They could give out $25-28 million total to the three and still be in a much better situation than the mess that the oilers are mired in.

You see, the leafs can pay because they have a top prospect development system and have cheap supporting players constantly graduating to the leafs every season. I know that might be hard for you to understand as the fan of a team that can't even develop Puljujarvi properly.

 

[Brobust]

Trading a good player to solely give a spot to a rookie that's played ~40 games. Also what team will ship off a similar RH D for Gardiner, which team would trade a better player for Gardiner? I would imagine none. That's why I don't see how it's a good idea to move him, assuming we're not going to have the benefit of dealing with a prime Chiarelli.

I'm totally fine with letting Gardiner walk if he outprices himself and we can't find a team that is willing to tango with us that at the same will help our team. I'm not interested in downgrading our team, especially on the back end.

How am I being sensitive? I'm just trying to discuss hockey, no need to resort to being a dick.

1. It's more and more a common trend in this league to depend on younger players sooner than normal. The idea that Dermott is too young or too inexperienced is honestly is an idea from 5 years ago. And is your mind suddenly going to change if he gets 80 more games on the third pair? I see no logic in the argument that he's just not ready. His scoring numbers are great, and his analytics are great despite playing next to Polak.

2. We see smarter teams make the decisions to trade pending UFAs and restock their cupboards, but we have to do it the old school way and let players walk for nothing. That thinking is sure to take us far.

If calling someone sensitive makes me a dick, then you really really need to stop being sensitive.

 

[Kelly]

1. It's more and more a common trend in this league to depend on younger players sooner than normal. The idea that Dermott is too young or too inexperienced is honestly is an idea from 5 years ago. And is your mind suddenly going to change if he gets 80 more games on the third pair? I see no logic in the argument that he's just not ready. His scoring numbers are great, and his analytics are great despite playing next to Polak.

2. We see smarter teams make the decisions to trade pending UFAs and restock their cupboards, but we have to do it the old school way and let players walk for nothing. That thinking is sure to take us far.

If calling someone sensitive makes me a dick, then you really really need to stop being sensitive.

I'm a big fan of Dermott, I just don't think trading Gardiner for make room (when there is already a spot) for him is a good move. Why only have two good defenseman, when you can have three.

Third pairing minutes isn't what it use to be too, similarily like playing on the third frwd line, the league is all about depth now.

Smarter teams like? St. Louis? Who trading Stastny and ended up missing the playoffs? Reports were that the players were pissed too. Teams looking to contend rarely ever do that. I can't think of any outside of Tampa when St. Louis asked to be traded after being cut from Team Canada by Stevie Y.

No, but apparently hoping to have a discussion without immature name calling is too much to ask. We're both Leaf fans and want what's best for the team, but if that's me being "sensitive" because I want to keep Gardiner than so be it.

What do you even propose? Are there any teams that will trade a similar RH dmen for him? Any teams that will trade a better defenseman for him? No?

So trade him for futures? Good god, I'm glad you're not the Leafs GM.

 

[6ix]

Klefbom played with 22 bone chips in his shoulder all season long. That’s been cleaned up now.

If you look back at his advanced stats Klefbom has actually been damned good his entire career.

Gardiner has always been at best average in his own zone - not just this year, his entire career - and we are not in a position to give up 10th to rent him. He’s an offensively minded 3-4 defenceman. Great. Bully for you guys. Keep him or trade him, I don’t care. He’s not a fit here and on an overall basis he is not an upgrade over what we already have. We also can’t afford him either short or long term.

You guys have been given 1001 reasons why OP is a bad trade for us but you won’t let it ****ing go. Drop it already.

As for the post you replied to, your defence is much worse than your offense. Everyone knows that. Andersson also had a great year and if he doesn’t have a great year next year you’re in trouble. I’m not sure why that’s so inflammatory.

All I’m saying is you always think every Oiler will get back to their peak performance play from a previous year, while every other teams player is gunna drop to their lowest level of play to devalue them.

Truth is when you’re talking about good but not great players it’s somewhere in the middle. They’ll have good and bad stretches throughout the season. 50+ point dman don’t grow on trees regardless of some defensive short comings.

 

[McSuper]

What does that even mean? The leafs are only 2 years out of a dismantling. Please divide playoff games by the number of overall first round picks since their respective rebuilds

You talk in absolutes . There are none and not all drafts are created equally . A first in this years draft maybe be better then the next 5 first combined .

Leaf fans should not be bashing any fan base . Enjoy your success and hope you win a cup . Before bashing other teams take a look at the TML record over the last 20 years and now 2 years of playoffs and your heads are all swelled up . Like wise Edmonton fans also shouldn't be bashing any team after going thru a 10 year + rebuild and ending up with zero depth . It is also not like it is the fans fault of either team , incompetence management have screw the fan bases over for years . Most Oiler fan are hope Chia is gone sooner rather then later and TML better hope their new GM is smart enough to complete the rebuild

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Because points aren’t the only consideration and Gardiner should be playing as sheltered minutes as he could possibly be given.

I agree with your other reasons but this is false. Gardiner should be given an actual top-4D to play with. When has he played his best hockey? With a healthy Zaitsev (end of last year 4D), Hainsey (before his decline this year 4D), Carrick last year (4D), with Phaneuf (3D). When has he looked his worse? With an unhealthy Zaitsev (5D), Polak (6D), etc.

Remember last playoffs when he shutdown Caps top line? He plays more than 22 minutes a game too. Babcock should play him with a proper partner who can also move the puck (hoping for Dermott, Rosen or Carrick). I'm always confused when people say he needs a defense-first partner. It isnt defense he's bad at, it's those odd huge turnovers, and a defense-first partner won't help that. A partner who he can rely on to move the puck as well without dumping it out is what he needs.

 

[Fourier]

They could give out $25-28 million total to the three and still be in a much better situation than the mess that the oilers are mired in.

You see, the leafs can pay because they have a top prospect development system and have cheap supporting players constantly graduating to the leafs every season. I know that might be hard for you to understand as the fan of a team that can't even develop Puljujarvi properly.

Lets test this hypothesis. Its 2019-2020 and the cap is $84M. You sign Tavares to $11M and Matthews, Nylander and Marner to contracts totalling $25M you resign Gardiner for $4.5M and you now have $71.3M invested on these 12 guys:

Forwards: Matthews, Tavares, Nylander, Marner, Kadri, Brown, Hyman, Marleau
Defense: Rielly, Zaitsev, Gardiner
Goal: Andersen

So that leaves you with $12M to fill in 10-11 roster spots plus some room for injuries. Bump that up to $28M and you now have an average of $900K per player to fill out the roster. That forward group would be outstanding but the defense would be a huge question mark. Given that a guy like Hainsey cost the Leafs $3M and that salaries will be rising as the cap moves up to $84M you will be filling those slots with guys on ELC's most likely. So can this team win with a defense

Rielly Zaitsev
Gardiner Liljegren
Dermott Borgman

Marleau's deal is there to stay so this would mean moving Kadri leaving you with no center depth if Nylander plays on the wing.

In contrast, the Oilers cap issues are way over blown. Since we are talking fantasy signings lets give the Oilers Doughty at $11M

The Oilers could run:

Nuge McDavid Rattie
Lucic Draisatil Puljujarvi
Khaira Strome Yamamoto
Benson Caggiula Kassian

Nurse Doughty
Klefbom Larsson
Sekera Benning
Bear
Talbot

and that team could come in at about $82M leaving $2M for a backup goalie and a 13th forward.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

I agree with your other reasons but this is false. Gardiner should be given an actual top-4D to play with. When has he played his best hockey? With a healthy Zaitsev (end of last year 4D), Hainsey (before his decline this year 4D), Carrick last year (4D), with Phaneuf (3D). When has he looked his worse? With an unhealthy Zaitsev (5D), Polak (6D), etc.

Remember last playoffs when he shutdown Caps top line? He plays more than 22 minutes a game too. Babcock should play him with a proper partner who can also move the puck (hoping for Dermott, Rosen or Carrick). I'm always confused when people say he needs a defense-first partner. It isnt defense he's bad at, it's those odd huge turnovers, and a defense-first partner won't help that. A partner who he can rely on to move the puck as well without dumping it out is what he needs.

He’s played his best hockey on the best Leafs team he’s been a part of. Kind of like how when Klefbom looked really good the Oilers were really good too.

When I say Gardiner needs to be sheltered that’s not saying he shouldn’t have a good partner - of course he should. The problem is the only good righty we have is Larsson and whoever plays with Larsson is facing top attacking lines, top matchups, and heavy defensive zonestarts, and that’s not Gardiner’s forte. I’m glad he looked good in one series - that the Leafs lost in six so I’m not sure he was *that* effective shutting down the caps - but he should be getting offensive zonestarts and lesser compe as much as possible.

Not only is our left side full with younger players that most Oiler fans are better all-around defencemen in Klef and Nurse, if he came here his partner would either be Russell or Benning. That wouldn’t do him any favours.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

All I’m saying is you always think every Oiler will get back to their peak performance play from a previous year, while every other teams player is gunna drop to their lowest level of play to devalue them.

Truth is when you’re talking about good but not great players it’s somewhere in the middle. They’ll have good and bad stretches throughout the season. 50+ point dman don’t grow on trees regardless of some defensive short comings.

If 16-17 is Klefbom’s high, this year was his absolute low. It’s not unreasonable at all to think that a 24 year old playing with injuries that’s shown top pairing levels of play can get back there when healthy.

What I’m saying is you’re selling based on Gardiner’s peak too and expecting us to believe he’s a surefire lock to be a 50 point defenceman going forward - his prior high before this year’s outlier was 43 points and before that he was a 30 point defenceman with large scale defensive warts. He’s 28 and a UFA in one season. This is not a guy we should be paying premium prices to rent.

 

[XXIV97]

They could give out $25-28 million total to the three and still be in a much better situation than the mess that the oilers are mired in.

You see, the leafs can pay because they have a top prospect development system and have cheap supporting players constantly graduating to the leafs every season. I know that might be hard for you to understand as the fan of a team that can't even develop Puljujarvi properly.

The Leafs drafting has been putrid the past couple of drafts. Since the 2015 NHL Entry Draft, the Leafs have lost the rights to 7 players out of 27 players (26%), while the Oilers have lost the rights to 3 players out of 21 (14%).

Sure, the Leafs might have a good AHL development system but they don't seem able to get good prospect in outside of the 2nd round.

 

[XXIV97]

All I’m saying is you always think every Oiler will get back to their peak performance play from a previous year, while every other teams player is gunna drop to their lowest level of play to devalue them.

Truth is when you’re talking about good but not great players it’s somewhere in the middle. They’ll have good and bad stretches throughout the season. 50+ point dman don’t grow on trees regardless of some defensive short comings.

Isn't that what most fan bases do?

With Klefbom, it isn't like his season was injury free. He had to get shoulder surgery this offseason, which limited his offensive ability by decreasing the power and accuracy of his shots. If Nylander was playing with an injured shoulder the whole season, would you devalue his work from the past two seasons and call him a 2nd line winger?

Klefbom had played fantastic the two prior seasons.

 

[Notsince67]

The Leafs drafting has been putrid the past couple of drafts. Since the 2015 NHL Entry Draft, the Leafs have lost the rights to 7 players out of 27 players (26%), while the Oilers have lost the rights to 3 players out of 21 (14%).

Sure, the Leafs might have a good AHL development system but they don't seem able to get good prospect in outside of the 2nd round.

The leafs offer contract to players that pan out. In December they had a maximum number (50) of contracts. They maintain rights to many players beyond, playing in multiple leagues. The bottom ones drop away.

 

[XXIV97]

The leafs offer contract to players that pan out. In December they had a maximum number (50) of contracts. They maintain rights to many players beyond, playing in multiple leagues. The bottom ones drop away.

I was just showing to the other poster how the Oilers have a similar prospect group to the Leafs or even better

 

[LeafingTheWay]

He’s played his best hockey on the best Leafs team he’s been a part of. Kind of like how when Klefbom looked really good the Oilers were really good too.

When I say Gardiner needs to be sheltered that’s not saying he shouldn’t have a good partner - of course he should. The problem is the only good righty we have is Larsson and whoever plays with Larsson is facing top attacking lines, top matchups, and heavy defensive zonestarts, and that’s not Gardiner’s forte. I’m glad he looked good in one series - that the Leafs lost in six so I’m not sure he was *that* effective shutting down the caps - but he should be getting offensive zonestarts and lesser compe as much as possible.

Not only is our left side full with younger players that most Oiler fans are better all-around defencemen in Klef and Nurse, if he came here his partner would either be Russell or Benning. That wouldn’t do him any favours.

That's where you're wrong though. The best Leafs team he's been apart of was this year and this year was far from his best year (If you're looking at point totals sure, but that's not his main forte - transition plays is). His transition and possession numbers were down this year (you should see how bad his partner gets when away from him though).

I agree with you that Edmonton shouldn't be adding Gardiner because you guys only have Larsson as the only capable RHD on the team. He did shutdown the top line as he was on the shutdown pair that playoffs, I didn't say anything about the rest of the team and the rest of the Caps.

I disagree with saying that they're better all-around players than Gardiner but that's me.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

The Leafs drafting has been putrid the past couple of drafts. Since the 2015 NHL Entry Draft, the Leafs have lost the rights to 7 players out of 27 players (26%), while the Oilers have lost the rights to 3 players out of 21 (14%).

Sure, the Leafs might have a good AHL development system but they don't seem able to get good prospect in outside of the 2nd round.

the reason the Leafs are losing rights to so many players is because there are just too many good players to give contracts to all of them. Conversely, Edmonton has to take whoever they can get and are nowhere near as blessed with the option to be so picky

 

[ChaoticOrange]

the reason the Leafs are losing rights to so many players is because there are just too many good players to give contracts to all of them. Conversely, Edmonton has to take whoever they can get and are nowhere near as blessed with the option to be so picky

That’s maybe the most arrogant answer I’ve seen to any question posed on this site.

The real answer is the Leafs drafting has been subpar outside of an excellent 2015 draft year.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

That’s maybe the most arrogant answer I’ve seen to any question posed on this site.

The real answer is the Leafs drafting has been subpar outside of an excellent 2015 draft year.

the drafting the last couple years could be better, but the overall organizational depth is stupidly good. I don't think that's arrogant to say since it's not really my doing. And the Oilers overall organizational depth is pretty bad

 

[ChaoticOrange]

the drafting the last couple years could be better, but the overall organizational depth is stupidly good. I don't think that's arrogant to say since it's not really my doing. And the Oilers overall organizational depth is pretty bad

‘The drafting could be better’ is the real answer and you seem to know that so why reply with silly Toronto chest thumping?

Absolutely it is, however Keith Gretzky has been working wonders finding talent in later rounds. We actually have non first round prospects to be excited about since guys like Horcoff and Pisani.

 

[Visnovsky]

A great scenario in my opinion would be the following:

- Toronto trades Gardiner (either for futures, or a TOP4 RHD with a more defensive playstyle to pair with Rielly)
- Trade the possible futures for a TOP 4 RHD
- Sign DeHaan to pair with Zaitsev (4x4,5), this would also make DeHaan available for the possible expansion draft

 

[Funk21]

Lets test this hypothesis. Its 2019-2020 and the cap is $84M. You sign Tavares to $11M and Matthews, Nylander and Marner to contracts totalling $25M you resign Gardiner for $4.5M and you now have $71.3M invested on these 12 guys:

Forwards: Matthews, Tavares, Nylander, Marner, Kadri, Brown, Hyman, Marleau
Defense: Rielly, Zaitsev, Gardiner
Goal: Andersen

So that leaves you with $12M to fill in 10-11 roster spots plus some room for injuries. Bump that up to $28M and you now have an average of $900K per player to fill out the roster. That forward group would be outstanding but the defense would be a huge question mark. Given that a guy like Hainsey cost the Leafs $3M and that salaries will be rising as the cap moves up to $84M you will be filling those slots with guys on ELC's most likely. So can this team win with a defense

Rielly Zaitsev
Gardiner Liljegren
Dermott Borgman

Marleau's deal is there to stay so this would mean moving Kadri leaving you with no center depth if Nylander plays on the wing.

In contrast, the Oilers cap issues are way over blown. Since we are talking fantasy signings lets give the Oilers Doughty at $11M

The Oilers could run:

Nuge McDavid Rattie
Lucic Draisatil Puljujarvi
Khaira Strome Yamamoto
Benson Caggiula Kassian

Nurse Doughty
Klefbom Larsson
Sekera Benning
Bear
Talbot

and that team could come in at about $82M leaving $2M for a backup goalie and a 13th forward.

You need to go back to school

2019/2020 based on 85 Million cap

Hyman Matthews Nylander
2.5. 11. 6.5
Marleau JT Marner
6.125. 11. 7
Johnsson Kadri Kap
1.5. 4.5. 1.5
Grundström ???????? ???????
1. 2. 1

55.725

Reilly Carlson
5. 8
Dermott Zaitsev
1. 4.5
Borgman Liljegren
1.5. 1

22

Andersen
5
????????
1

6

84.725

Sure it doesn’t give us much breathing room that year but if the trade happened and we were to get Bouchard we likely trade Zaitsev at TDL or at beginning of year and have more cap space. There are a lot of ifs in this premise like landing JT and Carlson but to think it can’t be done is a nonsense.

Plus new CBA plus expansion team will likely see cap jump 10 Million following year IMO!

 

[Notsince67]

That’s maybe the most arrogant answer I’ve seen to any question posed on this site.

The real answer is the Leafs drafting has been subpar outside of an excellent 2015 draft year.

How long do prospects last in your mind? Stop being so arrogant yourself and use google. The cupboard is full
Maple Leafs at 50 SPC limit, per report

 

[Fourier]

You need to go back to school

2019/2020 based on 85 Million cap

Hyman Matthews Nylander
2.5. 11. 6.5
Marleau JT Marner
6.125. 11. 7
Johnsson Kadri Kap
1.5. 4.5. 1.5
Grundström ???????? ???????
1. 2. 1

55.725

Reilly Carlson
5. 8
Dermott Zaitsev
1. 4.5
Borgman Liljegren
1.5. 1

22

Andersen
5
????????
1

6

84.725

Sure it doesn’t give us much breathing room that year but if the trade happened and we were to get Bouchard we likely trade Zaitsev at TDL or at beginning of year and have more cap space. There are a lot of ifs in this premise like landing JT and Carlson but to think it can’t be done is a nonsense.

Plus new CBA plus expansion team will likely see cap jump 10 Million following year IMO!

I've been "at school" for the last 50 years" so there is no need to "go back". But since you jumped into a conversation without knowing what it is all about maybe it is you who should go back to school. Your roster has Matthews, Nylander and Marner at $24.5M. Add another $3.5M to take them to $28M which is the high end of what the poster I was responding to suggested and then fill out the two additional slots you need for a legal roster and you are now $6M over the $84M cap limit we are assuming. Try shedding $6M in cap space and then get back to me.

For the record expansion likely hurts the cap rather than helping it. And unless you think the owners are in an awfully generous mood, why would a new CBA increase the cap when every other time it has reduced it?