TSN: Jake Gardiner or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Advanced Stats

[CalgaryLeaf*]

Only in Toronto can the following be true:

Defenseman is lauded for his offensive abilities while not being any good in defensive situations.
Winger is widely hated for his lack of defense while being one of the top offensive players in the league for a considerable period of time.

Gardiner is weak on the boards, behind the net, in front of the net, and any other situation that is actually defending. His strengths are all offensive. That's not even debatable.

Let's set up a thread wherein we track all of Gardiner's great defensive plays this coming season. Let's see if we can fill a page.

Let's set up another thread wherein we track all of Gardiner's defensive lapses, giveaways in the defensive zone and missed defensive assignments.

We'll need more than a full thread for the latter.

What exactly does he do well offensively besides skate with the puck?...I mean his hockey IQ is so bad 99.9% of the time the play ends without a good scoring opportunity...He doesn't have a booming shot from the point,he's not a QB on the powerplay,he doesn't rack up a lot of goals/points...I don't understand how they can call him an offensive defenseman.

He skates well,big deal.

 

[pcruz]

What exactly does he do well offensively besides skate with the puck?...I mean his hockey IQ is so bad 99.9% of the time the play ends without a good scoring opportunity...He doesn't have a booming shot from the point,he's not a QB on the powerplay,he doesn't rack up a lot of goals/points...I don't understand how they can call him an offensive defenseman.

He skates well,big deal.

He transitions the game well from the defensive zone to the offensive zone. That, to me, is what offensive defensemen are supposed to do. Let the forwards do the scoring as that's what they're supposed to do.

However, defensemen are ALL supposed to be able to defend. It's in their job title ffs!

 

[Nithoniniel]

He transitions the game well from the defensive zone to the offensive zone. That, to me, is what offensive defensemen are supposed to do. Let the forwards do the scoring as that's what they're supposed to do.

However, defensemen are ALL supposed to be able to defend. It's in their job title ffs!

Sure, but without touching Gardiner's defensive play, what it comes down to in the end is bottom line effectiveness. And that supports Gardiner.

A team that was always on the offensive would be the best defensive team ever.

 

[Daisy Jane]

the only thing I want to see from Jake this season - if nothing else. is that I never see him raise his stick in the air, and try to bat pucks with it as if he's chasing butterflies.

because I seriously might go down to the ACC and smack him if he does.

everything else, would be gravy for me.

 

[CNDJam]

Gardiner is an enigma wrapped in a mystery.
He has the potential to be the best player on the ice for either team on a given night. His skill and skating is astounding. He is like the Edmonton Oilers. Once things click, look-out! Interesting to see how he and Babs get along.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

Gardiner's physique is a concern, he looks like a teenaged boy for god's sake. Rielly is a beast compared to him already, makes me wonder if he has the work ethic of Phil, with a smaller appetite for street meats.

 

[CalgaryLeaf*]

He transitions the game well from the defensive zone to the offensive zone. That, to me, is what offensive defensemen are supposed to do. Let the forwards do the scoring as that's what they're supposed to do.

However, defensemen are ALL supposed to be able to defend. It's in their job title ffs!

No,offensive defenseman produce offence (goals,assists,points)...He doesn't

 

[The Man with a Plan]

Only in Toronto can the following be true:

Defenseman is lauded for his offensive abilities while not being any good in defensive situations.
Winger is widely hated for his lack of defense while being one of the top offensive players in the league for a considerable period of time.

Gardiner is weak on the boards, behind the net, in front of the net, and any other situation that is actually defending. His strengths are all offensive. That's not even debatable.

Let's set up a thread wherein we track all of Gardiner's great defensive plays this coming season. Let's see if we can fill a page.

Let's set up another thread wherein we track all of Gardiner's defensive lapses, giveaways in the defensive zone and missed defensive assignments.

We'll need more than a full thread for the latter.

You sound like you are looking for a scapegoat and no matter what is presented fact wise you are going to harp on him. You might be able to get a job somewhere in TO as another hack writing about a sport they don't know near enough about.

Maybe judge him AFTER he has played a year under a great coach and within a system that is actually a system and isn't left hung out to dry again and again.

 

[Clark4Ever]

He should blossom under Babcock's tutelage.

 

[diceman934]

Jump in...much more fun then just watching /reading.

I really like Gardiner and his game. Carlyle hand cuffed him and it hurt him a lot. This is a make or break year for him as a Leaf. .if Babcock does not like him he is easily moved with no retained salary. Puck moving d man with his skating ability are not on the market a lot.

 

[Muston Atthews]

Sure, but without touching Gardiner's defensive play, what it comes down to in the end is bottom line effectiveness. And that supports Gardiner.

A team that was always on the offensive would be the best defensive team ever.

People don't understand this concept, especially some of our older posters.

Nothing false about that post of theirs. Gardiner isn't a clever defenseman to my thinking either. In fairness though he is still young and improving.

Two years ago when he was in the Ahl he was a dominant defenseman and actually looked like a Hedman style of skater. To soon to quit on him. He is a bonehead sometimes. We still hope he developes under Babs i hope.

Nothing false about the post? How much is Gardiner overpaid by?

 

[diceman934]

Only in Toronto can the following be true:

Defenseman is lauded for his offensive abilities while not being any good in defensive situations.
Winger is widely hated for his lack of defense while being one of the top offensive players in the league for a considerable period of time.

Gardiner is weak on the boards, behind the net, in front of the net, and any other situation that is actually defending. His strengths are all offensive. That's not even debatable.

Let's set up a thread wherein we track all of Gardiner's great defensive plays this coming season. Let's see if we can fill a page.

Let's set up another thread wherein we track all of Gardiner's defensive lapses, giveaways in the defensive zone and missed defensive assignments.

We'll need more than a full thread for the latter.

The issue with threads like you are suggesting is the ability to assess blame as to who is at fault...and many do not possess the ability to apply what they are seeing and what they should have saw. Not all giveaways are the fault of the passers. Same as missed defensive assignment...unless you understand the rotation and the expectations then assessing blame is a mute point.

 

[Menzinger]

I think Gardiner will have a much better "eye test" under Babcock and his superior coaching systems. Carlyle never seemed to understand how to use Jake.

No,offensive defenseman produce offence (goals,assists,points)...He doesn't

I think the duality between "offensive" and "defensive" defensemen is going away. Your shutdown defensive has been going extinct.

What defensemen need to do to succeed is to surpress shouts against and go control the puck - two things Gardiner. does very well. The easiest way to prevent goals against is to not alliw the other team to have the puck.

 

[Mitchy]

Gardiner is a great defenceman and has a good contract, especially, when you compare it to some recent contracts. For instance, David Savard, just got a bigger contract then Gardiner and he is clearly worse.

 

[Macman]

Can we please stop using "great" and "Gardiner" in the same sentence. It's no wonder other fan bases mock us. Gardiner has serious issues. Hopefully he will improve under Babcock but the last thing he is right now is great.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Can we please stop using "great" and "Gardiner" in the same sentence. It's no wonder other fan bases mock us. Gardiner has serious issues. Hopefully he will improve under Babcock but the last thing he is right now is great.

The reason why other fan bases mock us have really nothing to do with thinking Gardiner is good, an opinion more well-spread among fans of other teams that watch Leafs than it is here.

I agree that great is taking it a bit far though.

 

[SprDaVE]

He's been fairly underrated lately around here that's for sure. Still a solid top 4 offensive defender with a lot of good qualities to his game.

The problem is that his offensive numbers haven't been all that good for a guy with his skill level and skating level. He needs a coach that will really utilize him to maximize that potential.

Leafs management really like Gardiner and that's good news because you don't give up those kind of defenders easily. I just hope Lamoriello doesn't pull a Fletcher Steen kind of trade here...

 

[The Caveman]

Ferraro said on Leafs Lunch that he was worried that Jake might not have the fortitude to handle Babcock's demands. Funny he mentioned him in particular.

 

[TheProspector]

Top pairing guy. Defensively effective due to his possession game.

Babcock will know exactly how to utilise Gardiner effectively. He even made Lebda an effective defenseman.

Through pretty much no ATOI, of course.

 

[Kubus]

Ferraro said on Leafs Lunch that he was worried that Jake might not have the fortitude to handle Babcock's demands. Funny he mentioned him in particular.

I have to say that Ferraro is talking out of his ARS then. It's not like Babcock is a coach that demands hitting, fighting, grinding, or closing down the net, he is a skill and puck possession guy, exactly what Gardiner needs.

It's not to say that Gardiner will excel here, but what Babcock brings is exactly what Gardiner needs. I would be scared for Gardiner if Babcock was a trap first, grind the players down type of coach as those are not Gardiner's stenghts. But Babcock likes moving the puck, puck possession, things Gardiner is good at.

I mean to say that if there is a coach that Gardiner should excel under it's Babcock.

 

[The Caveman]

I have to say that Ferraro is talking out of his ARS then. It's not like Babcock is a coach that demands hitting, fighting, grinding, or closing down the net, he is a skill and puck possession guy, exactly what Gardiner needs.

It's not to say that Gardiner will excel here, but what Babcock brings is exactly what Gardiner needs. I would be scared for Gardiner if Babcock was a trap first, grind the players down type of coach as those are not Gardiner's stenghts. But Babcock likes moving the puck, puck possession, things Gardiner is good at.

I mean to say that if there is a coach that Gardiner should excel under it's Babcock.

He was referring I believe to his being in peak physical condition, and very disciplined at playing a system. Ferraro generally chooses his words quite carefully when commenting hockey. He also mentioned Kadri, but believed Kadri would adapt. Just thought it was interesting that he would single out Gardiner specifically. I always felt that Gardiner was lacking professionalism and desire more than anything else.

 

[ACC1224]

Ferraro said on Leafs Lunch that he was worried that Jake might not have the fortitude to handle Babcock's demands. Funny he mentioned him in particular.

I'm sure he has the fortitude but he may not have the brains.

 

[RLF]

Skilled guy who hasn't been able to put it together consistently...hopefully just yet.

Maybe Babcock can help him with a new system, that will yet to be seen. So many thinking Babcock will make everyone immediately better...maybe some players are just what they are.
A lot of blame on Carlyle for using him improperly, a bad system etc. Systems don't account for bad decision making or a lazy effort at times. That's on Jake. Jake has a fairly weak shot by NHL standars as well, also on Jake. When Ferraro talks about Jake may not be able to handle Babcock's demands, he refers to him improving in these areas and being committed to improve.imo

Babcock can only do so much. He will not be able to transform all players overnight into guys who want to compete hard day in, day out if that is not in them. They will likely revert or just not adapt in the first place. This is some of the pain we hear about. It is not just poor play on the ice. Also, benchings, moving guys down the line-up or eventually moving out players who are not committed. More of the pain we may see that will make some fans unhappy if it is players like Jake or Kadri.

 

[Guy Boucher]

One thing about Gardiner is that he's had really bad starts to the season three years in a row now.

But when he's good, he's damn good. Unfortunately most fans here only remember the bad and gloss over his good play.

 

[AINEC*]

Through pretty much no ATOI, of course.

Hahaha that is amazing.