Jake gardiner is better than rielly

[Nithoniniel]

So you admit that Gardiner's inability to play his weakside.... yet you are basing your opinion on Rielly who is asked to do so (1)

I have said this over 3 times and you dismiss or minimizing context (2) when comparing two player is wrong and absurd when talking about a very young D man.

We are comparing players and playing against better players on a weak team is very significant (3) when doing so on your weakside (4).

Telling me to read is a joke, I read what you wrote and disagree with you.

I told you to really read what I say because you still don't seem to get the point. Illustrated by you suddenly now, after the third time, making a big thing of me saying Gardiner doesn't play RD.

(1) I am basing my opinion on the clear statistical edge in Gardiner's favor. I am basing it on how these two players have performed, on the context that has happened and what effect it has been calculated to have.

(2) I am not dismissing or minimizing context. I am analyzing it. You keep using Rielly playing RD as both a point in his favor and an excuse. It doesn't work both ways.

(3) No, QoC is never significant. It is always a small difference over the course of the season. We know this. I don't see the point in just absolutely ignoring all we know about it.

(4) And yet again, that's fine. But then Rielly is not a versatile player, and just like Gardiner he struggles on the RD.

My point has been consistent through every post that I've made. Gardiner has been performing great, Rielly has been managing. QoC doesn't make up for the difference, this has been shown over and over when testing this factor.

And about the weak side. Either Rielly is versatile (something in his favor) and his numbers wouldn't change much on the left side, or both of them belong on the left side and it causes Rielly's numbers to be worse. Either way, it doesn't explain the gap between them entirely.

That's been my main issue all along. You make Rielly better in part because he can play both positions, but you also seem to claim that his numbers would be much better on the left. But that's what happened with Gardiner, and you are quite comfortable dismissing him as only being able to play on the LD. Can you at least address this?

 

[BlueBaron]

I hope this not going to turn into another Riemer-Bernier battle on who is better. Can't we just enjoy them both ?

 

[WilliamNylander]

Jake Gardiner is going to become the next Mark Giordano.

 

[indigobuffalo]

Both these guys are worse than Duncan Keith so I don't get the point of this thread.






Oh daaaaaa-amn, did I just torch people for forgetting Gardiner is 4 years older than Rielly?

 

[diceman934]

I told you to really read what I say because you still don't seem to get the point. Illustrated by you suddenly now, after the third time, making a big thing of me saying Gardiner doesn't play RD.

(1) I am basing my opinion on the clear statistical edge in Gardiner's favor. I am basing it on how these two players have performed, on the context that has happened and what effect it has been calculated to have.

(2) I am not dismissing or minimizing context. I am analyzing it. You keep using Rielly playing RD as both a point in his favor and an excuse. It doesn't work both ways.

(3) No, QoC is never significant. It is always a small difference over the course of the season. We know this. I don't see the point in just absolutely ignoring all we know about it.

(4) And yet again, that's fine. But then Rielly is not a versatile player, and just like Gardiner he struggles on the RD.

My point has been consistent through every post that I've made. Gardiner has been performing great, Rielly has been managing. QoC doesn't make up for the difference, this has been shown over and over when testing this factor.

And about the weak side. Either Rielly is versatile (something in his favor) and his numbers wouldn't change much on the left side, or both of them belong on the left side and it causes Rielly's numbers to be worse. Either way, it doesn't explain the gap between them entirely.

That's been my main issue all along. You make Rielly better in part because he can play both positions, but you also seem to claim that his numbers would be much better on the left. But that's what happened with Gardiner, and you are quite comfortable dismissing him as only being able to play on the LD. Can you at least address this?

You are arguing that because I do not agree with you that I can not read....get a grip. I disagree with your opinion and because I do.....you assume that I can not conceptualize your point


When making a comparison you have to compare all things that are equal....as Jake plays on his strong side and Rielly plays on his weakside that is very difficult, the same goes for quality of opponents and partners. I believe that context is the issue and you seems to want to minimize context and I do not as I know how very difficult it is to play the right side as a Left handed D man.

You keep stating that "Rielly is not a versatile" which I could not disagree more with! He is very versatile as seen by his usage...

 

[Finnish your Czech]

I think Jake Gardiner is marginally better than Rielly right now. That doesn't mean Rielly is less valuable because that's silly. He's 5 years younger.

 

[Al14]

I hope this not going to turn into another Riemer-Bernier battle on who is better. Can't we just enjoy them both ?

Impossible. You HAVE to be in one camp or the other, but, not both!

I enjoy both players. I think they both have talent, that when used correctly, will help us win in the future. Babcock will get the most out of both players.

There is no need to compare these 2 players ad nauseam IMHO.

 

[diceman934]

He has done this playing his weakside against the top players in the League.....I stand by my opinion of Rielly being better than Gardiner who I love and always defended him when he was cast as a dummy who should play forward!

 

[Dustin]

Since both are used in very different situations currently, I fail to see how one can be considered anything but marginally better than the other.

If both were being used on the PP and PK equally, on their strong side, with relative defense partners and against similar competition it would be easier to gauge.

Either way, today is not the time to be concerned with who is better. 3 or 4 years from now when the team is competing is when this will be important.

We should just be happy that we have 2 defensemen that look to be a part of our team going forward.

 

[MapleLeafs9]

The more and more I watch Rielly I don't think he's anything special. Still should be a solid top 4 defenceman though.

 

[ACC1224]

Seems like the loss of Rielly's mentor has taken a bit of a toll on him since the deal. I'm confident he'll bounce back though.

 

[TheCLAM]

The team is just plain bad overall, especially that defense. I don't think we should draw straws about Rielly being limited to a career top 4. Look at the age gap between Gardiner and Rielly. It's taken years for Gardiner to come into his own as player approaching prime years.

Both are going to be effective players with their effortless skating abilities. It's the fact that we have Hunwick, Polak, Corrado, Marincin as their support guys!

 

[Slot]

I hope this not going to turn into another Riemer-Bernier battle on who is better. Can't we just enjoy them both ?

especially as d-men aren't an either/or scenario. There's enough room for both on the team.

 

[TMLegend]

The more and more I watch Rielly I don't think he's anything special. Still should be a solid top 4 defenceman though.

I tend to agree. I think he'll be an offensive #2-3 and not this stud defender everyone think he'll be.

Regarding the topic at hand, Gardiner has been better this season.

 

[francis246]

one main problem is I believe that he should be playing LD. Not sure why they have him on the Right. Also get him away from Hunwick. Every time I look that pairing is getting scored on.

 

[TMLegend]

one main problem is I believe that he should be playing LD. Not sure why they have him on the Right. Also get him away from Hunwick. Every time I look that pairing is getting scored on.

Is this the part where we blame everyone but Rielly for his struggles? Like how some do with Nazem?

 

[francis246]

Is this the part where we blame everyone but Rielly for his struggles? Like how some do with Nazem?

How is that blaming everyone else? Rielly sucks on Right D. He can't play it. That is Rielly's own fault. But also as an organization you have to recognize when someone is struggling and adjust. They keep pushing this Hunwick and Rielly paring and it has been ass the entire season. Make a switch and allow your players to grow.

 

[Nithoniniel]

You are arguing that because I do not agree with you that I can not read....get a grip. I disagree with your opinion and because I do.....you assume that I can not conceptualize your point

When making a comparison you have to compare all things that are equal....as Jake plays on his strong side and Rielly plays on his weakside that is very difficult, the same goes for quality of opponents and partners. I believe that context is the issue and you seems to want to minimize context and I do not as I know how very difficult it is to play the right side as a Left handed D man.

You keep stating that "Rielly is not a versatile" which I could not disagree more with! He is very versatile as seen by his usage...

Sigh.

No I don't think you can't read. I also don't have a problem with others subjective opinions, especially not yours as I think you are a good poster. I'm saying that you seem to have a narrative you have decided on, and preconceived notion of what I'm saying that makes my point pass you by.

I do not keep stating Rielly is not versatile. That's not what I have said at any point. I'm saying:

1) Versatile D-men play both sides equally effective. There are plenty of examples of this.
2) The very defining measure of versatility is being able to play a different position without loosing too much of your effectiveness.
3) Therefor you can't both be versatile, yet be much more effective on one side.
4) In a situation with a player playing on his off-side, either he's versatile and he doesn't lose much of his effectiveness, or he isn't and his numbers would look better on his proper side.

It is simple logic, not a matter of opinion.

So to address your second paragraph, it's all fine to say that Rielly would have better numbers on the left side and the gap between them decrease. But then you can't laud Rielly for being versatile enough to play both sides. If both of them perform worse on the right side, both of them are better on the left, then one of them can't be a versatile player and the other not. It defies any kind of logic.

Also, what you are doing is identifying contextual factors, like quality of competition, and then assigning an arbitrary impact. You keep saying that despite Gardiner's statistical edge, Rielly is the better D-man because of these factors. What do you base your opinion that the impact of these factors are large enough for Rielly to be the better player? Because I base my opinion on the matter on tons of studies of quality of competition and the effect it has on cases like these.

I hope this not going to turn into another Riemer-Bernier battle on who is better. Can't we just enjoy them both ?

I agree with this completely. I think both are long-term pieces for this club, Rielly in particular. I don't mean in any way to belittle one of them, or making it a case of having to choose one. I am just a sucker for accuracy.

On that note, I think I'm done with the above discussion. If my point hasn't come across by now, I don't think it ever will.

 

[cannucky]

Maybe Babcock who knows a wee bit more about the game and the individual players than those of you who constatly man crush on Reilly is playing him on the right side because he knows from watching him every day in practice that he sucks worse on the left side .Babs said it at the beginning of the year the Reilly needs to learn how to play defense if he wants to stay in this league.Trading the Pylon has exposed his weakness and now that you have lost that scapegoat you cast Hunwick as the problem.Yes he is fast and yes he can slide in for a scoring chance but thats not what a d man is payed for , we have wingerd for that Gards has learned that the hard way and is maturing into a real nhl d man .

 

[81Leafs50]

Reilly is better of one reason. Gardiner is absolutely lost in the defensive zone. Gardiner cannot make the right reads.

Reilly is much better of an all around player and younger, and has more offensive upside.

Whoever says Gardiner is better than Reilly is going off their rocker.

 

[diceman934]

Maybe Babcock who knows a wee bit more about the game and the individual players than those of you who constatly man crush on Reilly is playing him on the right side because he knows from watching him every day in practice that he sucks worse on the left side .Babs said it at the beginning of the year the Reilly needs to learn how to play defense if he wants to stay in this league.Trading the Pylon has exposed his weakness and now that you have lost that scapegoat you cast Hunwick as the problem.Yes he is fast and yes he can slide in for a scoring chance but thats not what a d man is payed for , we have wingerd for that Gards has learned that the hard way and is maturing into a real nhl d man .

Such BS.....never said that at all.....and Rielly is better on the Left side but we lack players who can play the Right side...

 

[Purity*]

I tend to agree. I think he'll be an offensive #2-3 and not this stud defender everyone think he'll be.

Regarding the topic at hand, Gardiner has been better this season.

Atleast give it another 2-3 years before making a statement like this.

 

[TMLegend]

Atleast give it another 2-3 years before making a statement like this.

Why? I'm not allowed to project players careers on a message board?

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Love Gardiner but no he isn't

 

[Liminality]

Atleast give it another 2-3 years before making a statement like this.

We'll see how Rielly is doing when he's Gardiner's age in 4 years, tons of time to develop his all around game under Babcock.