Jagr vs. Hull: Playoff resumes

[frisco]

For me he disappoints in the playoffs because he never had a playoff run that matches the caliber of his regular seasons. Yes he never had a bad playoff, but he never had a great one either. It's consistently just good, he never elevated.

Just off the top of my head, Jagr scored 24 points in 21 GP and won the Cup in Pittsburgh when he was barely 20. He raised his game when Mario missed six games. I'm probably missing someone like Steve Payne or something, but 24 playoff points at that age is pretty damn impressive. Can't think of anyone else who has done that, tbh.

And you don't have to look too far or too hard to find other impressive Jagr playoff years.

My Best-Carey

Edit: 1991-92 was considered Jagr's age 19 season. His 24 playoff points are the best for that age or younger. Gretzky had 21 and Roenick 18 for next on the list for age 19 or younger.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yes. Let's throw out Barrasso's great year in 97-98 because the Penguins actually tried to play a little defense for the first time since the 70's. Of course, we'd have to do the same with about 19 seasons out of Martin Brodeur's career on the defense-first Devils trap machine teams.

My Best-Carey

It's not about "throwing it out", but it requires context. Just like Brodeur's seasons (though, the idea that he played behind a defense-first team his whole career is just nonsense. The Devils on the other side of the lockout especially were known for their aggressive forecheck led by Ilya Kovalchuk and Zach Parise...not exactly defensive luminaries - he was great no matter the circumstance, that's why talent evaluation is so important).

Anywho...Barrasso was going 3.52/.896 over the previous four seasons/100 games under the "do whatever you want" Pens of Eddie Johnston's tenure. Then becomes a 2.07/.922 guy immediately upon Constantine's arrival (with Peter Skudra batting about the same)...it's pretty clear that Barrasso was not an elite goalie talent wise at that time. But he was good enough to figure it out under Constantine's system. After Constantine's time, Barrasso went right back to being - exactly - a .896 goalie for the remainder of his career, fittingly.

 

[MadLuke]

l (with Peter Skudra batting about the same

341 shots is low enough to be quite noisy, 2 goals either direction and you go from .917 to .930

The veteran Wregget was .904 that year, exactly like the year before or after.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, I know...save percentage stinks. I don't need a reminder haha - but just illustrating that Barrasso was obviously buoyed by Constantine.

Saying that 341 shots is low and subject to noise and then throwing Wregget in to the discussion is misleading. Wregget played even less and faced even fewer shots. He herniated a disc in his back that year after a series of knee injuries I think...he clearly wasn't close to 100% and didn't last much longer in the league.

 

[MadLuke]

Saying that 341 shots is low and subject to noise and then throwing Wregget in to the discussion is misleading.

So I feel you agree completely with my message

Wregget faced 293 shots, same ballpark than Skudra who never played in the nhl before.

One can pick and choose to create the narrative they want.

Constantine was the penguins coach for a while, after Constantine time Barrasso was not a penguin anymore., the way it was phrased make it look like if Barrasso stat went down after leaving Constantine.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Ok, completely forget Skudra and Wregget. Barrasso only got Vezina looks in the two seasons that we distinctly played some defensive structure. '93 and '98. The Penguins wouldn't play any legitimate structure again until 2007/2008 when Therrien got his stuff implemented. And then again under Mike Johnston.

Constantine was only the Pens coach for two full seasons.

 

[Golden_Jet]

. I don't know how much you blame Hull. If Lemaire doesn't score a goal from outside of the blueline in the 2nd period of Game 7 in 1971 then Hull easily has a Conn Smythe.

ya Espo, that was an awful goal to let in.

 

[frisco]

Anywho...Barrasso was going 3.52/.896 over the previous four seasons/100 games under the "do whatever you want" Pens of Eddie Johnston's tenure. Then becomes a 2.07/.922 guy immediately upon Constantine's arrival (with Peter Skudra batting about the same)...it's pretty clear that Barrasso was not an elite goalie talent wise at that time. But he was good enough to figure it out under Constantine's system. After Constantine's time, Barrasso went right back to being - exactly - a .896 goalie for the remainder of his career, fittingly.

Well, you could make the argument that Brodeur played under defensive-minded coaches almost his entire career with (Lemaire, Burns, Robinson, Julien, even Constantine for awhile) and that he was pretty sheltered because of that.

And Barrasso, in Pittsburgh, save a year or two, was basically thrown to the wolves in a run and gun "we'll outscore you" mentality. And that his "true" ability to shutdown opponents ala Brodeur was only evident in seasons like 1992-93 and 97-98, when the Penguins took a more defensive tact and consequently his numbers were as good or better than Marty's.

My Best-Carey

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't disagree to an extent. But again, this is why proper talent evaluation is so critical in this. It clears up oddities lickety split.

Barrasso and Brodeur are several tiers apart (I say that as I'm watching game 6 of the 1999 ECQF haha)...that said, Brodeur was significantly better than basically every goalie that has ever played, so that's not a dig at Barrasso...he was a rushed prospect and lacked structure to his game. He adapted and figured out some stuff on sheer will and ability, he deserves credit for that.. He developed it a time of tumult for goalies and kept himself in the game during a (the?) golden age for the position...that's not nothing either, and it's never going to be captured by stats/votes...

And to be clearer, the Penguins method of "inmates run the asylum" coaching and organizational leadership that prevailed for damn near most of the team's history has a profoundly negative affect on goaltending stats in particular...

 

[Crosby2010]

ya Espo, that was an awful goal to let in.

I think it dipped, if you can make that excuse. An unfortunate goal, strangely doesn't get talked about as much as you would think.

 

[MadLuke]

88-89 to 92-93 team "save percentage", to make it easy I am using their shots against and goals against stats as a proxy for the team save percentage.

88-89 to 92-93

Montréal Canadiens	89.65%​
St. Louis Blues	89.13%​
New York Rangers	89.08%​
Buffalo Sabres	88.72%​
Chicago Blackhawks	88.38%​
Dallas Stars	88.36%​
Boston Bruins	88.28%​
New York Islanders	88.22%​
Philadelphia Flyers	88.22%​
Arizona Coyotes	88.18%​
Vancouver Canucks	88.16%​
Pittsburgh Penguins	88.13%​
Toronto Maple Leafs	88.11%​
Los Angeles Kings	88.09%​
Edmonton Oilers	88.06%​
Calgary Flames	88.06%​
Washington Capitals	88.04%​
New Jersey Devils	87.93%​
Detroit Red Wings	87.71%​
Carolina Hurricanes	87.48%​
San Jose Sharks	87.10%​
Colorado Avalanche	87.05%​
Tampa Bay Lightning	87.01%​
Ottawa Senators	85.22%​
Average	88.02%​

93-94 to 97-98:

Buffalo Sabres	91.81%​
New Jersey Devils	91.03%​
Chicago Blackhawks	90.71%​
Florida Panthers	90.61%​
Colorado Avalanche	90.47%​
Anaheim Ducks	90.38%​
Montréal Canadiens	90.32%​
Toronto Maple Leafs	90.32%​
New York Rangers	90.31%​
Pittsburgh Penguins	90.13%​
Carolina Hurricanes	90.03%​
Dallas Stars	90.00%​
Detroit Red Wings	90.00%​
Los Angeles Kings	89.97%​
St. Louis Blues	89.90%​
Philadelphia Flyers	89.67%​
Washington Capitals	89.66%​
New York Islanders	89.44%​
Calgary Flames	89.35%​
Tampa Bay Lightning	89.27%​
Edmonton Oilers	89.23%​
Arizona Coyotes	89.17%​
Vancouver Canucks	88.81%​
Boston Bruins	88.69%​
San Jose Sharks	88.42%​
Ottawa Senators	88.21%​
Average	89.84%​

 

[daver]

Just off the top of my head, Jagr scored 24 points in 21 GP and won the Cup in Pittsburgh when he was barely 20. He raised his game when Mario missed six games. I'm probably missing someone like Steve Payne or something, but 24 playoff points at that age is pretty damn impressive. Can't think of anyone else who has done that, tbh.

And you don't have to look too far or too hard to find other impressive Jagr playoff years.

My Best-Carey

Edit: 1991-92 was considered Jagr's age 19 season. His 24 playoff points are the best for that age or younger. Gretzky had 21 and Roenick 18 for next on the list for age 19 or younger.

Ignoring age, it is not close to being a great playoff, it was good for 4th in team scoring. It adds some "age relevant" value to his resume like Crosby's Art Ross win as a teenager but doesn't look good in relation to Hull's multiple team leading playoff point totals.

IMO, like OV's Cup, Jagr's 1992 run affectively removes "disappointing/underachieving" playoff legacy from the narrative.

Hull's is a bit more complicated as his individual numbers look great while his team disappointed. In comparison to other post war O6 peers like Howe, Beliveau and Richard, he falls quite short in team success/SCF appearances. How much of the team falling short cab be attributed to him, if any?

There is a bit of a similar theme to Jagr's Pens falling short but Jagr seems to get a bit more critiqued on his leadership/attitude.