Jagr vs Forsberg

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Rush5Collapse5 said:
um..

Jagr is a winger that scores goals...

Forsberg is a dominant two way center that controls the puck at will, at both ends of the ice, and plays 110% in the playoffs.

Not really much to debate.

Forsberg.. by far.

You seem to be quite attached to this notion that Jagr is one dimensional and that Forsberg is some kind of defensive specialist. I think we've had this debate before, and without rehashing everything, the basic point is that Jagr is from a "winger that scores goals" if completely fasle.

Also, Forsberg has only emerged as the league's best center in recent years, not to mention his defensive play has always been overrated. He was one of many great centers in the 90's, but never far and away the best. And in recent years his defensive exploits have been exaggerated. He was never as good as Federov, Peca, Lehtinen or defensive specialists like Madden, Draper etc...(Although Draper himself has gotten overrated defensively)

And yes there is a debate, it's close and I can accept arguments for both players, but neither guy wins "by far."
 
Rush5Collapse5 said:
Tucker316 -

12 of 15 GM's in a similar poll for THN, say Forsberg no question.

1 of 1 Tucker316's choose Jagr, no question.
 
Since everyone seems to have missed my last post on this issue, here it is again:

I've seen Jagr's heydey highlight reels, It's all offense. Great moves and great goals he celebrated by playing his hockey stick like a guitar, or rode like a motorcycle whilst his mullet blew in the breeze. I'm not as impressed as when I watch the 2 way play of Forsberg.

Foppa's ability to impose his will by either bull rushing someone over, or dangling between them like they were fastened pylons stand out more to me. I've literally seen Forsberg thwart several 2 on 1's by either stealing the puck with his stick or punking someone and taking it and then lead a rush the other way hotdogging his way between would-be defenders to make a breathtaking hairline pass through traffic for a goal. I've never seen anyone do that with such regularity in my life, not just a flashy offensive player, but a true dominant all around player at both ends.

Foppa early in his career (when the Nordiques first moved to Colorado) used to play keep away from multiple players with a dazzling display of puckhandling that literally seemed impossible, so much so, one of the four defenders he was beating over and over all by himself in the neutral zone, threw up his hands in disgust (true story). I can imagine people warned him after that to not embarrass people like that. This was from a guy that backcheckers "bounce off of" that delivers bone crushing checks and
sets up sure goals after his perpetual state of hypnotherapy on the PP breaks ankles. Forsberg is very much the Art Ross, Hart, and Selke all in one. It's no wonder 12 of 15 GM's picked him over Jagr in that poll of which forward they would choose to build their team around..
 
Rush5Collapse5 said:
Since everyone seems to have missed my last post on this issue, here it is again:

I've seen Jagr's heydey highlight reels, It's all offense. Great moves and great goals he celebrated by playing his hockey stick like a guitar, or rode like a motorcycle whilst his mullet blew in the breeze. I'm not as impressed as when I watch the 2 way play of Forsberg.

Foppa's ability to impose his will by either bull rushing someone over, or dangling between them like they were fastened pylons stand out more to me. I've literally seen Forsberg thwart several 2 on 1's by either stealing the puck with his stick or punking someone and taking it and then lead a rush the other way hotdogging his way between would-be defenders to make a breathtaking hairline pass through traffic for a goal. I've never seen anyone do that with such regularity in my life, not just a flashy offensive player, but a true dominant all around player at both ends.

Foppa early in his career (when the Nordiques first moved to Colorado) used to play keep away from multiple players with a dazzling display of puckhandling that literally seemed impossible, so much so, one of the four defenders he was beating over and over all by himself in the neutral zone, threw up his hands in disgust (true story). I can imagine people warned him after that to not embarrass people like that. This was from a guy that backcheckers "bounce off of" that delivers bone crushing checks and
sets up sure goals after his perpetual state of hypnotherapy on the PP breaks ankles. Forsberg is very much the Art Ross, Hart, and Selke all in one. It's no wonder 12 of 15 GM's picked him over Jagr in that poll of which forward they would choose to build their team around..


You've posted this like 3 times. Jagr is still better.
 
Rush5Collapse5 said:
Since everyone seems to have missed my last post on this issue, here it is again:

I've seen Jagr's heydey highlight reels, It's all offense. Great moves and great goals he celebrated by playing his hockey stick like a guitar, or rode like a motorcycle whilst his mullet blew in the breeze. I'm not as impressed as when I watch the 2 way play of Forsberg.

Foppa's ability to impose his will by either bull rushing someone over, or dangling between them like they were fastened pylons stand out more to me. I've literally seen Forsberg thwart several 2 on 1's by either stealing the puck with his stick or punking someone and taking it and then lead a rush the other way hotdogging his way between would-be defenders to make a breathtaking hairline pass through traffic for a goal. I've never seen anyone do that with such regularity in my life, not just a flashy offensive player, but a true dominant all around player at both ends.

Foppa early in his career (when the Nordiques first moved to Colorado) used to play keep away from multiple players with a dazzling display of puckhandling that literally seemed impossible, so much so, one of the four defenders he was beating over and over all by himself in the neutral zone, threw up his hands in disgust (true story). I can imagine people warned him after that to not embarrass people like that. This was from a guy that backcheckers "bounce off of" that delivers bone crushing checks and
sets up sure goals after his perpetual state of hypnotherapy on the PP breaks ankles. Forsberg is very much the Art Ross, Hart, and Selke all in one. It's no wonder 12 of 15 GM's picked him over Jagr in that poll of which forward they would choose to build their team around..

I actually saw, and replied to this the first time. Repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't make it right.

In fact, I think it's one of the worst angles you could take here, since anyone who actually saw them play could tell you that Jagr was BY FAR the superior offensive player. I mean, that's not even in question.

Hopefully you too will have a pleasant day.

BTW, I heard a romour (I'm not sure where) that 12 of 15 GM's like Forsberg better. I've been told you're the man to talk to regarding this matter. Can you confirm?
 
Tucker316 said:
Mario Lemieux says: Jaromir Jagr, no question.

When Gretzky played his last game, Gretzky said: Jagr, no question. He said he passes the torch to the best player in the league, and Forsberg wasnt the man.
Well if we're going to talk about passing the torch, then Mario passed it to Lindros right before his first retirement when the Flyers ousted the Pens in the playoffs and Mario had a nice talk with Eric.
 
Dark Metamorphosis said:
forsberg's been on a cup contender his entire career.
Because he's that damn good!

Any player that gets shut down by Chris Therien on a consistent basis, can't be better then Forsberg.
 
arrbez said:
I actually saw, and replied to this the first time. Repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't make it right.

In fact, I think it's one of the worst angles you could take here, since anyone who actually saw them play could tell you that Jagr was BY FAR the superior offensive player. I mean, that's not even in question.

Hopefully you too will have a pleasant day.

BTW, I heard a romour (I'm not sure where) that 12 of 15 GM's like Forsberg better. I've been told you're the man to talk to regarding this matter. Can you confirm?
That's a hilariously funny and yet ridiculous comment considering that both players post very comparable PPG's (Jagr has 1359 in 1060, Forsberg has 783 in 603). Jagr clearly has the heavier shot and uses it more, thus resulting in more goals per game. Forsberg is the better passer, with the better vision, resulting in more assists per game. The biggest thing Jagr has going for him in this debate is durability. The biggest things Forsberg has going for him is physical play, two way play, and the ability to step it up a notch or two in big games consistently.

I've been watching Jagr for years and years in matchups between the Flyers and Pens and I must admit, I didn't see enough of Forsberg to appreciate just how good he is. Watching him on a daily basis makes you realize just how one of a kind Forsberg is and he seems to be under-appreciated. I just wish I would've taken the time to watch him more then I did (probably only saw him 5-10 games a season + playoffs).
 
arrbez said:
Tells me those GM's are foolish. I wouldn't build around a 32 year old who spends half his life on injured reserve. I'm not stating this as a case for Jagr, but it would be nuts IMO to pick Forsberg over younger, healthier players to build a team around. 15 of 15 GM's should have picked a goalie.

when it comes to hockey knowlege:

NHL GMs >>>> you
 
Gags1288 said:
That's a hilariously funny and yet ridiculous comment considering that both players post very comparable PPG's (Jagr has 1359 in 1060, Forsberg has 783 in 603). Jagr clearly has the heavier shot and uses it more, thus resulting in more goals per game. Forsberg is the better passer, with the better vision, resulting in more assists per game. The biggest thing Jagr has going for him in this debate is durability. The biggest things Forsberg has going for him is physical play, two way play, and the ability to step it up a notch or two in big games consistently.

I don't think PPG is quite indicative of thier abilities, since Jagr was 3 or 4 years younger than Forsberg when he began his NHL career, and then sucked balls for his last few years in Washington.

If we're talking about their peak years (which I believe we are), there's no comparison IMO.

Forsberg's best offensive season would obviously be his Art Ross in 2003, where he won the scoring race by 2 points playing with (correct me if I'm wrong) Hejduk and probably Tanguay.

Jagr's best is probably 1999 when he won the title by 20 points playing with Kip Miller and Jan Hrdina.

Forsberg may be better at everything else, but there's no doubt in my mind who was the better offensive player
 
arrbez said:
BTW, I heard a romour (I'm not sure where) that 12 of 15 GM's like Forsberg better.

I point that out because it carries more weight in this argument than the individual perception in a minority group, any possible maligned bias, or anyone confused at the value comparison of both. That poll shows you what NHL GM's think, not your next door neighbor.

Yes 12 of 15 NHL GM's chose Forsberg of all forwards to build a team around. Once that sinks in for people, they'll begin to grasp just how one dimensional Jagr is, and just how much more Forsberg can offer.
 
Mountaineer said:
when it comes to hockey knowlege:

NHL GMs >>>> you

Oh bravo.

Can you honestly say that if you had to build a team around one player right now, you would take a perennially injured 32 year old who has hinted at leaving the NHL? If so, I laugh at you, sir.

The quote I was replying to had no context at the time, as the original poster had forgot to mention that it was like 7 years old and only involved forwards. Go see for yourself.

But I'm sure you took that into consideration before tossing out the greater-than signs like this was a Crosby vs. Ovechkin thread...
 
next thing you know people will be saying forsberg's better than lemieux and gretzky due to his physical and defensive play.

jagr won 4 straight art ross trophies and was far and away the best offensive player in the league during that time period. have people forgotten that forsberg was in the league and in his mid 20s when this happened? i wonder why jagr beat him out year after year? during their peaks, jagr was a much much better offensive player. a one man wrecking crew, and enough to offset forsberg's defense. that's the type dominance that peter has never shown.

some of you really need to rewatch some penguin games between 1995-2000.
 
Jagr easily. He is a dominant player, one of the best of the last 20 years. Not only is Jagr better, but Forsberg is nothing more than a part-time player because he is injured so much.
 
Why do we have to compare different players all the time?

Both these players are two of the best to play the game of hockey. Jagr is the scoring machine, Forsberg is the more complete player and the one I would rather have on my team. Jagr will probably be remembered as the one with the better career but Forsberg as the most complete player with more spectacular moves and assists and a vision few come close to.

Let's just enjoy two of the greatest offensive forces out there, it might be a while before we see any players like these two again.
 
I'll never quite understand the infatuation with the one dimensional shooting winger, over the dominant two-way center instrumental in so much playoff success. It's not like Foppa doesn't "dazzle" either - Foppa's puck control and stickhandling is better than Jagr's, so that argument doesn't work. That unmatched puck control coupled with Forsberg's ability to take the puck away from the leagues best forwards, and then beat the leagues best defenders, is revealing of a virtual one man army with the ability to dictate the games outcome.

In terms of value, It's easy to see what those NHL GM's were thinking choosing Forsberg over the other forwards.
 
norrisnick said:
Spending your career on a stacked team really helps with that winning aura, doesn't it?

Jagr.
It's not just about spending your career on a stacked team. It's about elevating your play from the regular season to the post-season. It doesn't matter if you're Peter Forsberg or Peter Ferraro. When it comes to playoff time, you're expected to take your play to the next level. Watch Forsberg in the playoffs. Better yet, watch him in the 2002 playoffs. You'll love what you see. Skill. Savvy. Physical play. Carrying a team on his back. That is likely the best I've seen a forward play on a team that didn't reach the Cup final since Neely in 1991 or Gilmour in 1994.

To say one player is head and shoulders over the other is erroneous. They're both going to the HHOF. They're both top 50 all-time players. To say that Jagr is a goal scoring winger is also erroneous. He has more assists than goals every year of his career, and while I'm not a big believer in statistics, this is one you can't ignore.

As stated before, I'll take Forsberg. The fact that I would want him in a Game 7 more than Jagr is the clincher. (Although if I can have both, that's even better).
 
Aight...

So it's Game 7 in the SCF, both Forsberg and Jagr are healthy and you could put either of them but not both on your team, which one do you take? Now and in their prime?

When put that way, to me, on both questions that answer is easy. Forsberg. I think anyone voting for Jagr in this scenario would be be crazy.

However, if you ask whose had the better career, again, that's easy, it's Jagr.
 
God Bless Canada said:
It's not just about spending your career on a stacked team. It's about elevating your play from the regular season to the post-season. It doesn't matter if you're Peter Forsberg or Peter Ferraro. When it comes to playoff time, you're expected to take your play to the next level. Watch Forsberg in the playoffs. Better yet, watch him in the 2002 playoffs. You'll love what you see. Skill. Savvy. Physical play. Carrying a team on his back. That is likely the best I've seen a forward play on a team that didn't reach the Cup final since Neely in 1991 or Gilmour in 1994.

To say one player is head and shoulders over the other is erroneous. They're both going to the HHOF. They're both top 50 all-time players. To say that Jagr is a goal scoring winger is also erroneous. He has more assists than goals every year of his career, and while I'm not a big believer in statistics, this is one you can't ignore.

As stated before, I'll take Forsberg. The fact that I would want him in a Game 7 more than Jagr is the clincher. (Although if I can have both, that's even better).

Best post i've seen today. :clap: :clap: :clap:
 
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