Jagr vs Crosby

[RevengeOfTheDrai]

Crosby won a Ross by a higher % over 2nd place than peak Jagr ever did.

You’re quite right Daver, although Jagr’s 1999 separation from #2 is in the same ballpark at 18.7%.

Factoring in the competition, you could make the argument that winning by such a margin over Selanne, Kariya, Forsberg and Sakic is more impressive than Getzslaf, Giroux, Seguin and Perry. Impossible to prove this though. Another thing to point out is that league wide scoring was virtually identical in 1999 and 2014. Adjusted stats are flawed, but Jagr putting up more points in a similar scoring environment is factor I consider.


Peak go could either way, and I now lean Crosby, but Jagr has had a historic seven year prime. I’m inclined to say prime Jagr was a little bit better.

Jagr's seven year prime PPG 1.54

Next best PPG (min. games): 1.35 - Lindros, 1.30 - Forsberg

Avg. PPG of the other Top 10 scorers: 1.13(Jagr's PPG is 36% better)

Credit: Link

I don’t think Crosby is as far ahead over his peers. Jagr also remained healthy and has five Art Rosses to show for it.

 

[daver]

Peak go could either way, and I now lean Crosby, but Jagr has had a historic seven year prime. I’m inclined to say prime Jagr was a little bit better.

Jagr's seven year prime PPG 1.54

Next best PPG (min. games): 1.35 - Lindros, 1.30 - Forsberg

Avg. PPG of the other Top 10 scorers: 1.13(Jagr's PPG is 36% better)

Credit: Link

I don’t think Crosby is as far ahead over his peers. Jagr also remained healthy and has five Art Rosses to show for it.

The numbers for Jagr are wrong (my mistake). Avg. PPG of the other Top 10 scorers: 1.20(Jagr's PPG is 28% better)

Here is Crosby's 8 year prime: NHL Stats

PPG - 1.42

Next best PPG (min. games): 1.22 - Malkin, 1.18 Ovechkin

Avg. PPG of the other Top 10 scorers: 1.07(Crosby's PPG is 33% better)


Crosby is farther ahead of his peers in PPG. So the point about who had the higher ceiling offensively is certainly debatable. Obviously Jagr was fortunate to play more games at his peak; a point which could be argued in Crosby's favour as his 1.42 PPG is probably higher if he played more games between '10 and '12.

 

[Regal]

The numbers for Jagr are wrong (my mistake). Avg. PPG of the other Top 10 scorers: 1.20(Jagr's PPG is 28% better)

Here is Crosby's 8 year prime: NHL Stats

PPG - 1.42

Next best PPG (min. games): 1.22 - Malkin, 1.18 Ovechkin

Avg. PPG of the other Top 10 scorers: 1.07(Crosby's PPG is 33% better)


Crosby is farther ahead of his peers in PPG. So the point about who had the higher ceiling offensively is certainly debatable. Obviously Jagr was fortunate to play more games at his peak; a point which could be argued in his favour as Crosby's 1.42 PPG is probably higher if he played more games between '10 and '12.

Part of the issue with comparing to peers over a 7-8 year span though is that those peers aren’t necessarily consistent over that span to get an idea of the real scoring environment. For instance, Ovechkin scoring less after 09-10 wasn’t due to the scoring environment but his own play. I think a comparison to the average of the yearly average top 10 would be more telling

 

[wetcoast]

Part of the issue with comparing to peers over a 7-8 year span though is that those peers aren’t necessarily consistent over that span to get an idea of the real scoring environment. For instance, Ovechkin scoring less after 09-10 wasn’t due to the scoring environment but his own play. I think a comparison to the average of the yearly average top 10 would be more telling

Either way Crosby has that 20 year elite prime that only a handful of players even come close to in lesser timeframes and also hit the ground running quicker than Jagr did.

Jagr gets under rated at times but Crosby is clearly the better all time player, anyone saying otherwise is fighting a losing battle.

 

[Regal]

Either way Crosby has that 20 year elite prime that only a handful of players even come close to in lesser timeframes and also hit the ground running quicker than Jagr did.

Jagr gets under rated at times but Crosby is clearly the better all time player, anyone saying otherwise is fighting a losing battle.

For sure. I am curious about a deeper dive into their offensive primes, though I don’t have the time just now. My initial thought is that Jagr is a little better offensively though they’re on the same tier

 

[authentic]

For sure. I am curious about a deeper dive into their offensive primes, though I don’t have the time just now. My initial thought is that Jagr is a little better offensively though they’re on the same tier

Jagr had over 150 points in the calendar year of 1998 or 1999, I think he has the higher offensive peak, but he also had more time on ice and less defensive responsibility.

 

[Toby91ca]

Jagr's seven year prime PPG 1.54

Next best PPG (min. games): 1.35 - Lindros, 1.30 - Forsberg

Avg. PPG of the other Top 10 scorers: 1.13(Jagr's PPG is 36% better)

You've ignored Jagr's teammate, who averaged 1.90 over that time period. I know he missed lots of games though.

 

[daver]

You've ignored Jagr's teammate, who averaged 1.90 over that time period. I know he missed lots of games though.

Jagr matched his 95/96 dominance in '99 and '00 so it's not cut and dried that he was boosted by Mario. Crosby should get credit for producing regardless of the quality of his linemates. Crosby's 2-way play, or Jagr's lack of it, is the biggest difference between the two in my books.

 

[daver]

Part of the issue with comparing to peers over a 7-8 year span though is that those peers aren’t necessarily consistent over that span to get an idea of the real scoring environment. For instance, Ovechkin scoring less after 09-10 wasn’t due to the scoring environment but his own play. I think a comparison to the average of the yearly average top 10 would be more telling

You seem to be implying that the stats are misleading in some way. Why should Crosby's numbers be any less impressive if one can argue that Ovechkin didn't play well for a couple of seasons? You can make that argument for any player that is captured in the '95 to '01 timeframe or the '07 to '14 timeframe.

Both Ovechkin and Malkin could not sustain their peak level of play, or play close to it, year in and year out like Crosby was able to. That is a plus for Crosby.

And the impact of one player's stats are minimal when you are comparing points or PPGs to the pack of elite scorers, in this case the Top Ten.

Is there something about the numbers you think doesn't pass the smell test?

 

[NikolaTesla]

Crosby was the best of his generation imo, I vote for him.

 

[daver]

For sure. I am curious about a deeper dive into their offensive primes, though I don’t have the time just now. My initial thought is that Jagr is a little better offensively though they’re on the same tier

In terms of per game level of play over, here is where I would place their best seasons:

Tier 1

Jagr 98/99
Jagr 99/00

Crosby 10/11
Crosby 12/13

Jagr's 95/96 season could be there but I think he doesn't reach that level of production without Mario. Crosby's 11/12 season could be there but he didn't play enough games.

Tier 2
Jagr 94/95
Jagr 95/96
Jagr 96/97
Jagr 97/98
Jagr 00/01
Jagr 05/06

Crosby 06/07
Crosby 07/08
Crosby 08/09
Crosby 09/10
Crosby 13/14
Crosby 16/17

Tier 3

Jagr 01/02

Crosby 14/15
Crosby 15/16
Crosby 18/19