Jagr vs Crosby

[EdJovanovski]

Who better all time

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[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Jagr is better offensively, maybe goal scoring too. Crosby overall.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Who better all time

A better question is, who better than Kanyon?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Jagr is better offensively, maybe goal scoring too. Crosby overall.

That would imply Crosby contributes something of significance defensively or on the PK.

He definitely doesn't.

Crosby is deployed for offense. Crosby's wingers have typically done the defensive heavy lifting for him. Crosby is a last guy back/first guy out type of player and he's never shut anyone down.

 

[pi314]

Watched both of their careers.

It’s a 1A and 1B situation.

Definitely Crosby for me.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Jagr is better offensively, maybe goal scoring too. Crosby overall.

Top 10 goal finishes

Crosby: 1,1,7,7
Jagr: 2,2,2,2,3,4,6,9

There's no maybe, Jagr was clearly better as a goal scorer.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Voted too close to call.

 

[hamzarocks]

Crosby is like 6th at highest and 10th at lowest

Jagr is a bit lower for me. 8th at highest and 15th at lowest

Went crosby, have him at 8th all time, and Jagr 11th

 

[Incognito]

Voted Crosby. I have him at #5 all-time after Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr and Howe.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Crosby very easily

 

[The Grim Reaper]

That would imply Crosby contributes something of significance defensively or on the PK.

He definitely doesn't.

Crosby is deployed for offense. Crosby's wingers have typically done the defensive heavy lifting for him. Crosby is a last guy back/first guy out type of player and he's never shut anyone down.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Statistically, Jagr has an edge. Better goal scorer, and better point accumulator with 5 Art Rosses to Crosby's 2.

In terms of total career value, much of the difference is what Jagr contributed age 39 and later - which was largely (but not entirely) compiling.

Crosby could probably match that simply by choosing to play longer. Maybe he will?

IMO Crosby is the better franchise player. Jagr was an egotistical butthead at times - something he obviously learned from Mario Lemieux. Most of the time it's impossible to know from the outside if a player's attitude is negatively impacting the team but in Jagr's and Lemieux's case it got so bad that it's undeniable. Imagine trying to GM a team and you've got some talented top tier players, but the two best of them are such big douchebags that your team throws away any chance at winning just to make them happy in the moment. It really is a significant drawback at that point.

Not that it's unheard of in other sports - Shaq and Kobe likely threw away 2 or 3 Lakers championships due to their inability to act like professionals and work together. That makes them less desirable and it does significantly reduce their greatness IMO.

I just can't picture Sidney Crosby ever reaching that level of idiocy. And maybe that's enough to tip the scale back in his favor?

 

[hamzarocks]

Statistically, Jagr has an edge. Better goal scorer, and better point accumulator with 5 Art Rosses to Crosby's 2.

In terms of total career value, much of the difference is what Jagr contributed age 39 and later - which was largely (but not entirely) compiling.

Crosby could probably match that simply by choosing to play longer. Maybe he will?

IMO Crosby is the better franchise player. Jagr was an egotistical butthead at times - something he obviously learned from Mario Lemieux. Most of the time it's impossible to know from the outside if a player's attitude is negatively impacting the team but in Jagr's and Lemieux's case it got so bad that it's undeniable. Imagine trying to GM a team and you've got some talented top tier players, but the two best of them are such big douchebags that your team throws away any chance at winning just to make them happy in the moment. It really is a significant drawback at that point.

Not that it's unheard of in other sports - Shaq and Kobe likely threw away 2 or 3 Lakers championships due to their inability to act like professionals and work together. That makes them less desirable and it does significantly reduce their greatness IMO.

I just can't picture Sidney Crosby ever reaching that level of idiocy. And maybe that's enough to tip the scale back in his favor?

I know you have a hate on for Lemieux, crosby and it seems Jagr

But all 3 are still better or equal players all time than Ovechkin (Lemieux obviously being a whole different class)

Put some respect on their names, and stop pretending Ovechkin wasn't considered a cancer/loser before 2018

Pens with Lemieux and Jagr still have 2 cup wins

Crosby + Malkin still have 3

It is easy to assume that pens should have won more but its not that easy

Mcdavid and Draisaitl are the two best performers in the playoffs these past 3 years and they have 0 cups.

Lemieux, Jagr, Crosby, Malkin, and OV all acheived the team success that they could

All have a cup and dominated the NHL. No reason to pretend they failed at winning

Your take on Kobe and Shaq is also bad.

The Lakers would win zero more rings with a Shaq and Kobe core after 04. It wasn't just the chemistry issues. Shaq was declining with age and injuries, Kobe needed a different (mobile and quick big -i.e Gasol) as his sidekick not a slowing it down ball dominant 300+ pound center who couldn't move well and was a pylon at defense by 06

Shaq had 05 and 06 left as an elite player, 07 he was a all star and 08 he was done being a top 3 option on a contender.

05 they would have lost to Duncan and the Spurs just like 03

06 is a tough won, but hard to say they could win that year with the west being super tough, and NBA moving away from post dominance to stretch bigs

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Top 10 goal finishes

Crosby: 1,1,7,7
Jagr: 2,2,2,2,3,4,6,9

There's no maybe, Jagr was clearly better as a goal scorer.

One has 2 Rocket trophies while the other has none.

Or do "trophy finishes" matter more now than they did in the Ovechkin/Crosby debates where Crosby finishing 2nd or 3rd in Hart/Art Ross races more mattered less than Ovechkin having a single Hart more?

(For the record I don't even necessarily disagree that Jagr was a better goal scorer. Just seems that "finishes" matters when it's no longer favoring Crosby while suddenly actual trophy counts no longer trump finishes when it does favor him)

 

[authentic]

Crosby for sure but based on pure ability as a hockey player there is a case for Jagr, pretty sure no one and not a single GM takes him on their team over Crosby though, similar to Ovechkin.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Can't picture any GM taking Jagr over Crosby. There is the answer. Not really a discussion at this point.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Jagr was terrific during his 4 year run, but he also got really lucky that he didn't have a peer particularly close to him to contend with him for trophies. Lemieux was retired for basically his entire prime, Gretzky was in his late 30s and no one else of the era was all that close to Jagr.

Jagr didn't have to contend with Ovechkin or McDavid level talents like Crosby had had to over his career. Guys like Sakic, Fedorov and Forsberg were excellent, but they're not Ovi or McDavid.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I know you have a hate on for Lemieux, crosby and it seems Jagr

But all 3 are still better or equal players all time than Ovechkin (Lemieux obviously being a whole different class)

Put some respect on their names, and stop pretending Ovechkin wasn't considered a cancer/loser before 2018

I don't deny that millions of small brained nativists have always slandered Alex Ovechkin.

 

[Regal]

I think you could argue Jagr had a better 7-8 year prime. Crosby pulls ahead on the length of his prime. Jagr was slower to get going, he had the lame duck years in Washington and wasn’t really elite after after age 34/35 despite some impressive old age numbers. I also agree that Crosby had a better attitude and was a better leader, which makes him a rather easy choice as a team’s franchise player.

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

Jagr has more talent but Crosby never took a year off to coast like Jagr did either. Jagr is obviously extremely dedicated and has great work ethic, which we know now, but there was a time when Jagr was viewed as a player who chose when to dominate and when he couldn't be bothered too.

With Crosby, you know you are getting 100% all the time.

 

[Mrb1p]

Crosby is 5th all-time and if you say otherwise youre just hating (Unless you have Hasek, Roy, Harvey, Morenz, Shore ahead but its still not right.)

 

[Midnight Judges]

Your take on Kobe and Shaq is also bad.

The Lakers would win zero more rings with a Shaq and Kobe core after 04. It wasn't just the chemistry issues. Shaq was declining with age and injuries, Kobe needed a different (mobile and quick big -i.e Gasol) as his sidekick not a slowing it down ball dominant 300+ pound center who couldn't move well and was a pylon at defense by 06

Shaq had 05 and 06 left as an elite player, 07 he was a all star and 08 he was done being a top 3 option on a contender.

05 they would have lost to Duncan and the Spurs just like 03

06 is a tough won, but hard to say they could win that year with the west being super tough, and NBA moving away from post dominance to stretch bigs

Both players subsequently anchored championship teams. They certainly weren't washed up or anything.

It was a personality problem that forced the change. If the team had made the choice out of pragmatism - that would be different. But that wasn't it. It was two massive egos that could no longer co-exist and it resulted in Shaq demanding a trade and getting it.

I just can't imagine Sidney Crosby getting pissed that Malkin is on the team or claiming to the press "This is MY team and Evgeny needs to learn how to play this way or that way" -as if constant sniping via the press is going to help anything. Those types of actions are selfish actions without the slightest element of team goals.

Anyway, that's the point I'm making here. Jagr had those types of issues to the point where it was detrimental to his teams. There are lots of top tier players - like Crosby, Ovechkin, Gretzky - who consistently put the team first, and they deserve credit for that.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Crosby is 5th all-time and if you say otherwise youre just hating (Unless you have Hasek, Roy, Harvey, Morenz, Shore ahead but its still not right.)

Ovechkin has more hardware, more MVPs, similar points, more primary points, and nearly 50% more goals than Crosby in the same number of seasons - all while being a power forward.

Ovechkin > Crosby

 

[TheGoldenJet]

If there ever was a star forward who was even worse defensively than Ovechkin, it was Jagr.

Guy was allergic to the defensive zone.

 

[powerbomb]

Ovechkin has more hardware, more MVPs, similar points, more primary points, and nearly 50% more goals than Crosby in the same number of seasons - all while being a power forward.

Ovechkin > Crosby

How disingenuous… “same number of seasons” ignores that Ovechkin has 20-some less points (lol @ “similar”) with 170 more games played (i.e. two seasons worth)