Proposal: J.T. Miller to TOR

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seanlinden

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Barron is a defensive rhd with decent size and decent offense. A rare mould of player, which makes him more valuable than Robertson and Sandin, who are comparable prospects.

You haven't provided any 3rd party, reasonably objective source that ranks Barron as a "better prospect" than Robertson... or even, anywhere in the same realm.

Fitting a certain "style" doesn't instantly make you a better prospect. Performing, and showing potential for growth, does.

Laughing at the fact that you're calling Sandin a prospect, nevermind the suggestion that his value is similar to Robertson.
 

elitepete

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Jan 30, 2017
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You haven't provided any 3rd party, reasonably objective source that ranks Barron as a "better prospect" than Robertson... or even, anywhere in the same realm.

Laughing at the fact that you're calling Sandin a prospect, nevermind the suggestion that his value is similar to Robertson.
Don't really care about "3rd party, reasonably objective sources". These are the same sources that had Hughes, Pettersson, Horvat, Demko, all outside of their top 10 in their rankings. They don't know anything. I'm sure you can find "sources" that have Barron ranked higher than him. And just to be clear - these sources are from before the season; the players in question's stocks have seen changes over the last few months.

If you think Robertson is a better prospect than Barron, that's fine.. although it's not a really strong statement seeing as how Barron has been playing really well in the AHL, got called up to the NHL, and looked pretty steady. Meanwhile, Robertson has had another season where he's missed a lot of games due to injury (only played in 3!). But saying he's not even close to Robertson is a bit ridiculous & sounds biased.

By prospect I meant young player, but even then.. is it really that out of line to call Sandin a prospect? He has been in and out of the lineup at times. If someone called Hoglander or Podkolzin prospects, I certainly wouldn't be up in arms over it. Really a non-issue to me..
 

seanlinden

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Don't really care about "3rd party, reasonably objective sources". These are the same sources that had Hughes, Pettersson, Horvat, Demko, all outside of their top 10 in their rankings. They don't know anything. I'm sure you can find "sources" that have Barron ranked higher than him. And just to be clear - these sources are from before the season; the players in question's stocks have seen changes over the last few months.

If you think Robertson is a better prospect than Barron, that's fine.. although it's not a really strong statement seeing as how Barron has been playing really well in the AHL, got called up to the NHL, and looked pretty steady. Meanwhile, Robertson has had another season where he's missed a lot of games due to injury (only played in 3!). But saying he's not even close to Robertson is a bit ridiculous & sounds biased.

By prospect I meant young player, but even then.. is it really that out of line to call Sandin a prospect? He has been in and out of the lineup at times. If someone called Hoglander or Podkolzin prospects, I certainly wouldn't be up in arms over it. Really a non-issue to me..

Obviously not when it doesn't suit your argument.

THW's list was posted on January 11th, 2022 -- and represents their "mid-season" rankings.
https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-top-100-prospects-ranking/

I've found 2 lists that rank prospects league-wide. Both rank Robertson 18-20, and Barron 50+.

As mentioned, I was unsuccessful in finding anyone who ranked Barron higher than Robertson, or a even in the same range. If you've got a source -- would love to see it.

Otherwise all you're really doing is trying to impose your belief of what the team needs, when the real #1 focus for the Canucks needs to be getting quality. This isn't a team that's going to contend next year if they're trading Miller.
 

Jojalu

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Kerfoot is nothing more than a camp dump. Playing with players who inflate his value does not mean that will translate with the Canucks. No thanks


Are you saying Vancouver has zero talent for Kerfoot to play with? He produced over 40 points in his first 2 NHL seasons playing in Col.
 

AHLdepth

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Obviously not when it doesn't suit your argument.

THW's list was posted on January 11th, 2022 -- and represents their "mid-season" rankings.
https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-top-100-prospects-ranking/

I've found 2 lists that rank prospects league-wide. Both rank Robertson 18-20, and Barron 50+.

As mentioned, I was unsuccessful in finding anyone who ranked Barron higher than Robertson, or a even in the same range. If you've got a source -- would love to see it.

Otherwise all you're really doing is trying to impose your belief of what the team needs, when the real #1 focus for the Canucks needs to be getting quality. This isn't a team that's going to contend next year if they're trading Miller.

The article you quoted is written by https://thehockeywriters.com/author/pbaracchini/

So maybe a grain of salt needed, maybe not.

But what seems to have happened in this thread is trying to convince Canuck fans that these prospects are some of the best prospects on the planet and you should happily accept the return that universally no Maple Leaf fan or Canuck fan actually seems to want to happen.
 
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zcaptain

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Suggestion..........


Vancouver fans want Schneider/Baron, so Toronto do a 3 way trade and acquire one of those and put a package together.........


Baron/Schneider, Kerfoot and Toronto's 1st........then let's talk...something like that ?????
 
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2014nyr

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clearly what toronto needs is adding an expensive forward, lineup and cap is way too balanced.

also not sure kerfoot is an appealing roster add for van nor would eating any cap on miller, they need cap space - though tor could prob find a taker for him if hes the designated cap casualty
 

ktownhockey

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Van needs centers and RHD. Lilly isn't enticing enough, and downgrading to kerfoot so as to trade him for lesser pieces, doesn't do it for van either. If we are giving up a highly coveted piece and retaining, the return has to suit Van's needs. This isn't to say the offer is crap, it's just "meh" for what Van wants, considering there are plenty of other interested teams.
As a leafs fan, I think that is as fair an analysis as they come. It's unreal on this board how many people have no sense of reason or just cannot get past the team that is "offering the trade".

Applause to you for being normal. Thank you! Nice to see around here, coming from someone who has been here since day 1 (despite what my avatar/profile says). Too many haters are making these boards intolerable. Respect for a fair normal opinion that doesn't put down another fan base.
 

ktownhockey

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there arrogant. leaf fans think they have the best team in the league until they'll get bounced again in the first round and then start crying
Posts like these are insane. Grow up, move on. You generalize a group of fans and that's ridiculous. Move on Fan Boy!
 

Arthur Morgan

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Real question is, IS Miller worth moving what Canucks fans think hes worth?

Would he be as effective in Toronto as he was in Vancouver?

See it all the time where a player moves to a new team, their role lowers abit and they aren't even close to what they were before the trade
 

Nucklehead Supreme

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You would take a worse offer just to match your needs?

Trading for prospects is like drafting. You go for need when the prospects are comparable. Otherwise, you always take the better player.

I think the desire to trade for need is reasonable. But there has to be a better offer than that to reject the Leafs' one. Just from an asset management perspective.

Both Robertson and Sandin are higher-rated prospects by a substantial margin. One of them is already full-time in the NHL and trending in the right direction.

I think logically a GM should try to net the best possible assets when dealing with younger players. It's already hard to judge how they will turn out.

That's how you build a team that can win it all by building through need, we have enough small forwards and small dmen, we need guys like Barron and Helleson more, logically that's how you build a team.
 

Nucklehead Supreme

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I asked for an example of a deal that you think is realistic today.

Montreal & Ottawa "needed" futures -- they got them. As I mentioned, if your "need" is as generic as "we need to get younger", or "we need futures", or "we need prospects" or "we need picks", then yes, you'll fill a need when selling because that's what gets sellers generally get paid in.



Thank you.... now let's examine that package.

1. That first isn't going to be this year, because that belongs to the Coyotes.

2. Drew Helleson didn't crack the top 100 prospects by THW... is that really what you want to "make sure you don't miss" on?

3. Justin Barron made it all the way to 81 on that said list. Better than Helleson, yes -- but again, really what you want to bank your future on?

Ultimately, both the Leafs offer and this Avs offer only go towards "filling the need" of adding futures, with Toronto delivering better prospects that are closer to contributing today.

The reality is, by the time (if ever) Barron or Helleson sniff making real contributions at the NHL level, the Canucks may not even need a right shot defenceman.



The Sens didn't go out and say "we want to trade our 1st round pick, what can we get?". The Sens went out and said "we want matt duchene, here's the best package of futures we've got for him.

Same for Vegas and Vancouver buying Pacioretty & Miller... all about futures, and just what "level" of futures the player is able to command.

That's why when you hear about big name players being shopped... "the ask is a 1st round pick, top prospect, young roster player, and another pick or prospect". When teams are bad / selling, they maximize value, figure out how all the pieces fit together once they know what they have in terms of NHL players.

Montreal's need was to get a young C prospect which they got, you can't just change the definition of need to suit your narrative here come one.


I would rather have a package that fills holes, both those players do, that's how you build a deep team.


Ottawa specifically needed 1st round picks to cover screwing up the Duchene trade. Again a NEEED.


Vegas traded the most coveted postion in hockey, whether it was a prospect or not, that filled a need for the Habs, it wasn't nearly as general as your making it out to be
 

seanlinden

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Montreal's need was to get a young C prospect which they got, you can't just change the definition of need to suit your narrative here come one.


I would rather have a package that fills holes, both those players do, that's how you build a deep team.


Ottawa specifically needed 1st round picks to cover screwing up the Duchene trade. Again a NEEED.


Vegas traded the most coveted postion in hockey, whether it was a prospect or not, that filled a need for the Habs, it wasn't nearly as general as your making it out to be

AGain, Montreal's need was futures -- plain and simple. The fact that Vegas' top prospect was a C was / is somewhat inconsequential.

There isn't a single prospect that fills a hole in Vancouver's lineup today, and you don't know what the "Holes" will be in 2-3 years when that prospect is ready to actually contribute.
 
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Nucklehead Supreme

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AGain, Montreal's need was futures -- plain and simple. The fact that Vegas' top prospect was a C was / is somewhat inconsequential.

There isn't a single prospect that fills a hole in Vancouver's lineup today, and you don't know what the "Holes" will be in 2-3 years when that prospect is ready to actually contribute.

Yah I'm done arguing this your completely ignoring the narrative and creating your own. We're going in circles here, the deal doesn't happen anyways so it's moot.

Have a nice day.
 

Nylanderthal

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That's how you build a team that can win it all by building through need, we have enough small forwards and small dmen, we need guys like Barron and Helleson more, logically that's how you build a team.
Robertson is small, but Amirov is definitely not small and neither is Knies. Also, Niemela fills that coveted RD spot you’re so hard on to fill right now today.
All four of those guys rank way higher on any and all prospects list than the guys who you’ve mentioned.
Only reason I can come up with why you’re willing to die on this hill is because it’s the Leafs and you’d die a little inside watching your precious JT wear the blue and white.
 

Nucklehead Supreme

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Robertson is small, but Amirov is definitely not small and neither is Knies. Also, Niemela fills that coveted RD spot you’re so hard on ti fill right now today.
All four of those guys rank way higher on any and all prospects list than the guys who mentioned.
Only reason I can come up with why you’re willing to die on this hill is because it’s the Leafs and you’d die a little inside watching your precious JT wear the blue and white.

Not sure what your arguing with me about here bud, I was talking about the original trade only.

The players you mentioned would be a lot more appealing to me. I wouldn't lose my mind in any way to see Miller in a leafs uniform. Wow you guys are so sensitive.
 

Zybalto

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World Juniors are a crap shoot as far as success translating. I can think of a dozen guys from the Canucks alone that looked like world beaters at the WJC that simply didn't find away to use their talent and work ethic to do anything except be a middling talent, at best. AHL success is more promising, but is once again not a guarantee of any kind of success or likelihood of developing to their potential. Juolevi and Hutton were playing top four minutes convincingly for us for brief periods. Otherwise we have Rathbone, with the same kind of pedigree and success playing in a top four NHL role, albeit for a shorter period given our team make up, is he considered "spectacular"? We have him stashed in the minors because we can't get him enough ice time with Hughes and Ekman-Larsson running up the TOI stats. Maybe I've just been spoiled having he and Hughes developing at the same time. To use the scoring per game argument from Robertson, Rathbone is scoring .85 PPG in the AHL in two seasons, and Sandin had 0.65 (I'm assuming Sandin's sticking in the bigs).

Scoring like a monster in junior is fantastic, and entertaining as hell. Halbgewachs played 143 games and scored 120 goals in his final two seasons. He is also a smaller player that scored amazing goals in juniors. He's 24 and has played 5 games. Yes, development isn't linear. But Matt Cooke scored 45 in 65 for Windsor, so that isn't an excuse either. 97 in 168 is spectacular, but there is no way of projecting that as NHL production. For every Sakic, or Lindros or Lemieux you also have a Azevedo, Riendeau, Vey, Leipsic, Shinnimin or Kozun. A lot of the players broke out in their second or third year in the CHL too, and had a season or two of scoring at at a similar rate. I think every iteration of every team has had a prospect or two that have lit the CHL on fire (or KHL or SHL or NCAA or another league) and left the team and fans wanting more. 16 points in 21 games for the Marlies is promising, but again, that isn't any more of a guarantee his game will translate to the NHL.

Injuries are one thing, but also size is troubling with Robertson. We've seen how injuries and health concerns and size all work against promising prospects. Nolan Patrick comes to mind as one of the most recent high visibility cases, but every team has a long line of prospects picked later because of injury and size issues that show every signal they'll develop and just can't. We've dumped a number of them lately. These kind of factors make Robertson a lot more hit-or-miss, and for all the prospect rating sites having him in their top 20, it removes a lot of his luster. A broken leg essentially takes a years development away from him at a critical time. Can he over come this? Hell yes he can, and I hope he does, but not everyone can (Juolevi is my recent Canucks example).

I'm not here to say that there is no chance for either of them, or they're worthless, but neither are what I'd call spectacular. Most teams have a high risk, high reward forward and an offensive LHD that shows promise and that's why I don't think they're spectacular.

Dmen of the tourney awards at the World juniors the last 15 years:

2006 - Marc Staal
2007 - Erik Johnson
2008 - Drew Doughty
2009 - Erik Karlsson
2010 - Alex Pietrangelo
2011 - Ryan Ellis
2012 - Brandon Gormley
2013 - Jacob Trouba
2014 - Rasmus Ristolainen
2015 - Vladislav Kavriskov
2016 - Zach Werenski
2017 - Thomas Chabot
2018 - Alexander Romanov
2019 - Rasmus Sandin
2020 - Topi Niemela

I think you underestimate just how well that award has done in translating with good dmen. With Sandin playing in the top 4 the last couple weeks (and looking great), he's pretty much already surpassed the (2?) busts on that list. I'm gonna give Romanov a pass right now as he's still super young and on a bad team.

Sandin's massive strength this year has been his transition game against increasingly difficult opposition. He's not the quickest guy or the biggest out there but he's really been showing off his elite hockey IQ continually making smart plays. I really dont think the Leafs are going to gamble a 21 year old D with this kind of trajectory right now.

I accept the hit or miss stuff on Robertson, who as some have mentioned was still ranked at #20 on the hockey writers latest prospect ranking despite not even playing for forever but my bone to pick is with your framing of the discussion....

These guys were called "unspectacular" prospects in a dismissive tone that certainly was used to say they aren't anything special. Sandin has the pedigree and is doing something special in the league this year so far (despite hitting like 10 posts which has hurt his points numbers). Living in a cap world makes things different as well.

I'd have to think hard to give up just Sandin and a pick, nevermind the rest.
 
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Nylanderthal

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Not sure what your arguing with me about here bud, I was talking about the original trade only.

The players you mentioned would be a lot more appealing to me. I wouldn't lose my mind in any way to see Miller in a leafs uniform. Wow you guys are so sensitive.
Original trade is an overpayment. Kerfoot wouldn’t be the salary match he’s too inportant to the team now, it would be Ritchie. Also, Sandin isn’t available for a guy like Miller.
Realistically it’s Ritchie Dermott choice of the 4 prospects a first and a conditional pick based on how Toronto does in the two playoffs (2nd becomes a first for cup finals) for
Miller and Schenn.
 

Nylanderthal

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Jun 9, 2010
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Dmen of the tourney awards at the World juniors the last 15 years:

2006 - Marc Staal
2007 - Erik Johnson
2008 - Drew Doughty
2009 - Erik Karlsson
2010 - Alex Pietrangelo
2011 - Ryan Ellis
2012 - Brandon Gormley
2013 - Jacob Trouba
2014 - Rasmus Ristolainen
2015 - Vladislav Kavriskov
2016 - Zach Werenski
2017 - Thomas Chabot
2018 - Alexander Romanov
2019 - Rasmus Sandin
2020 - Topi Niemela

I think you underestimate just how well that award has done in translating with good dmen. With Sandin playing in the top 4 the last couple weeks (and looking great), he's pretty much already surpassed the (2?) busts on that list. I'm gonna give Romanov a pass right now as he's still super young and on a bad team.

Sandin's massive strength this year has been his transition game against increasingly difficult opposition. He's not the quickest guy or the biggest out there but he's really been showing off his elite hockey IQ continually making smart plays. I really dont think the Leafs are going to gamble a 21 year old D with this kind of trajectory right now.

I accept the hit or miss stuff on Robertson, who as some have mentioned was still ranked at #20 on the hockey writers latest prospect ranking despite not even playing for forever but my bone to pick is with your framing of the discussion....

These guys were called "unspectacular" prospects in a dismissive tone that certainly was used to say they aren't anything special. Sandin has the pedigree and is doing something special in the league this year so far (despite hitting like 10 posts which has hurt his points numbers). Living in a cap world makes things different as well.

I'd have to think hard to give up just Sandin and a pick, nevermind the rest.
Not offering up Sandin unless it’s a bonafide young upgrade with term.
 
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