It's Not The Water Or Culture, It's Your Forward Depth, Dummy.

[The Nuge]

I say it is a symptom and then you give me proof of the symptom

Players playing better this year than they did elsewhere is a symptom that the defense is holding them back? My god that’s delusional. I’m not even going to bother responding again

 

[ThePhoenixx]

You don't need to build a superstar defence to be good though. I know people don't want it brought up, but it is absolutely true that the Leafs are basically what the Oilers should have been and could have been.

Hockey gods gifted us the same opportunities to have a similar caliber team and we were robbed of that by stupid decision making from our management. Plain and simple.

We should be cruising to 105 points this year like the Leafs are. They're not even having some magical season where everything is going right for them (Matthews injured for a big chunk of the year, Nylander Gate hanging over the team), and they can pull 105 points outta their ass like its not a problem. Meanwhile here, it's a Titanic struggle to even hit 85 points.

The Oilers don't have a star defense let alone a super star one.

Maybe get it to respectable? Yawney was a start.

 

[Soundwave]

The Oilers don't have a star defense let alone a super star one.

Maybe get it to respectable? Yawney was a start.

And not every team is blessed with the best player in the world and maybe the greatest talent in hockey since Mario Lemieux.

Work with what you got. The Leafs are certainly not blessed with a superstar blue line and part of why Reilly's numbers are sky high because it's easier to rack up points when you have that much fire power on your front end.

He gets apples like crazy just by passing the puck up to all the horses they have on their front line. Put Klefbom on that team and he probably could get 50+ points.

Even a crappier version of the Leafs would still likely be a 90-95 point team (there's your playoff berth) and be a lot more fun to watch than the garbage we are forced to suffer through. This team somehow managed to create something that most Oiler fans can't even sit through all 60 minutes even with Connor McDavid on it.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

Players playing better this year than they did elsewhere is a symptom that the defense is holding them back? My god that’s delusional. I’m not even going to bother responding again

Playing better here?

Which wingers played worse where? You just said they all played better here.

Chaisson is in his prime/contract year and played with McDavid and Drai. Prime #PP time. Hope he gets a few/8 more points.

Khiara played last year with the same defense and is due to play another half dozen or so games this year. You ignore that. Seems like stagnation to me. He's young. He should be improving.

All the others...

Kassian is under.
Lucic is under.
Rieder is under.
Rattie: You fudge the numbers to make him appear over by using career high vrs on pace for...
14gp = 9 point hot streak last year. Career high?
13gp: 6 pt next career high.
40gp this year: 10 points. On pace for 20? Really?

You are all over the place...even fudging numbers to make a point.

Then you express frustration with me?

 

[ThePhoenixx]

And not every team is blessed with the best player in the world and maybe the greatest talent in hockey since Mario Lemieux.

Work with what you got. The Leafs are certainly not blessed with a superstar blue line and part of why Reilly's numbers are sky high because it's easier to rack up points when you have that much fire power on your front end.

He gets apples like crazy just by passing the puck up to all the horses they have on their front line. Put Klefbom on that team and he probably could get 50+ points.

Even a crappier version of the Leafs would still likely be a 90-95 point team (there's your playoff berth) and be a lot more fun to watch than the garbage we are forced to suffer through. This team somehow managed to create something that most Oiler fans can't even sit through all 60 minutes even with Connor McDavid on it.

Again you talk about the Leafs not having a superstar defense.

So around and around we go.

 

[Soundwave]

Again you talk about the Leafs not having a superstar defense.

So around and around we go.

They don't have a great D corps. Most of this board was pointing and laughing at their D corps going into this season claiming they would have to make their own version of a Larsson trade. Newsflash, they didn't because they're not stupid.

And no way would Reilly be putting up those offensive totals on this team either.

Even if the Oilers were a B-rate version of the Leafs, who the heck wouldn't take that over the garbage we're subjected to on a nightly basis.

At least we'd be somewhat FUN to watch, isn't that part of the point here? Sports is supposed to be *entertaining*? We're supposed to be entertained? How f***ing boring is this team most of the time? Most fans on this board admit they cannot even sit through full games.

The Leafs would still make the playoffs and be a fun team to watch even if you replaced Reilly with Klefbom. This is the first year in Reilly's career too that he's not been a minus player.

 

[rec28]

Culture - management and team - is absolutely a major issue but the whole “culture eats strategy for breakfast” nonsense is drastically oversimplified and leaves a crucial point unsaid: “... all else being equal”. All else is most definitely not equal on the Oilers. There is a certain baseline threshold of talent that must be in place for culture to have any effect in terms of meaningful success. Culture is a second order concern when over half the roster is genuinely made up of AHL level players that are simply outclassed in talent and fundamentally unable to compete in nearly any given game. Bring in half-decent players with a legitimate fighting chance of winning any game they play and provide the few stars we have with the support they need and you will have properly set the input conditions for an improved team culture to take over.

As far as management culture issues are concerned, I agree that they need to rebuild the front office from soup to nuts. Everyone needs to understand that there are limits, though. Paging back I see several mentions of managerial sins related to players living and partying together, JP’s English language training, etc. Just in case anyone has forgotten, these players are generally all grown men and not obligated by law or CBA to follow their club’s every wish outside of work. The Oilers can suggest - even insist - on this living arrangement or that social integration approach, but in the end, these are adults and they make their own decisions. They only work for their employer. This is not junior and the players are not billeted and controlled by their parents and hockey clubs. Good management “culture” in this regard is a bit of a mirage - the fully grown adults who make up the roster also have to buy in.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

They don't have a great D corps. Most of this board was pointing and laughing at their D corps going into this season claiming they would have to make their own version of a Larsson trade. Newsflash, they didn't because they're not stupid.

And no way would Reilly be putting up those offensive totals on this team either.

Even if the Oilers were a B-rate version of the Leafs, who the heck wouldn't take that over the garbage we're subjected to on a nightly basis.

At least we'd be somewhat FUN to watch, isn't that part of the point here? Sports is supposed to be *entertaining*? We're supposed to be entertained? How ****ing boring is this team most of the time? Most fans on this board admit they cannot even sit through full games.

The Leafs would still make the playoffs and be a fun team to watch even if you replaced Reilly with Klefbom. This is the first year in Reilly's career too that he's not been a minus player.

What exactly are you arguing? That the Oilers suck right now and the Leafs don't? That things may have been different?

I say who cares. What are you going to do to fix it now? Envying the Leafs isn't going to help. Last I looked the two best (honorable mention to Nashville) WC d-corps were in the WCF last year.

You said wingers. I say d-men. More d-men please.

 

[Soundwave]

What exactly are you arguing? That the Oilers suck right now and the Leafs don't? That things may have been different?

I say who cares. What are you going to do to fix it now? Envying the Leafs isn't going to help. Last I looked the two best (honorable mention to Nashville) WC d-corps were in the WCF last year.

You said wingers. I say d-men. More d-men please.

I'm saying you play the hand you are dealt. Yes I'd love to have a blue line with Doughty, Lidstrom, Pronger, and Reilly on it.

Reality is that isn't going to happen and wasn't available to us no matter what we did in 2015, 2016, or 2017.

We were however most certainly gifted a chance to have a powerhouse offensive team if our management wasn't stupid. We were for sure on that.

It's like saying "well I'm giving up on life because I wasn't born looking like a model and can't pursue my dream of being a Hollywood actor" ... well OK ... but if you can still be say ... a computer programmer (you're naturally great at math/programming) that can earn a million dollar salary, maybe just maybe (lol) you shouldn't feel too bad and focus on that. You can still have a great career, stop crying.

"I wants moar D" isn't even a realistic ask when you know full well no one is trading players like that, and you know full well the ridiculous price we had to pay just to get a guy like Larsson, who quite frankly isn't even that good.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

I'm saying you play the hand you are dealt. Yes I'd love to have a blue line with Doughty, Lidstrom, Pronger, and Reilly on it.

Reality is that isn't going to happen and wasn't available to us no matter what we did in 2015, 2016, or 2017.

We were however most certainly gifted a chance to have a powerhouse offensive team if our management wasn't stupid. We were for sure on that.

It's like saying "well I'm giving up on life because I wasn't born looking like a model and can't pursue my dream of being a Hollywood actor" ... well OK ... but if you can still be say ... a computer programmer that can earn a million dollar salary, maybe just maybe (lol) you shouldn't feel too bad and focus on that.

"I wants moar D" isn't a realistic ask when you know full well no one is trading players like that, and you know full well the ridiculous price we had to pay just to get a guy like Larsson, who quite frankly isn't even that good.

So you want to complain. I get that.

Other teams manage to trade for/ acquire them. The Oilers don't need top pairings. Just the middle guys. They are around. Muzzin for example.

I still say we need defense before wingers but some seem to feel that this makes me beyond stoopid.

Oh well. It certainly isn't up to me. The Oilers will do what they do.

 

[Soundwave]

So you want to complain. I get that.

Other teams manage to trade for/ acquire them. The Oilers don't need top pairings. Just the middle guys. They are around. Muzzin for example.

I still say we need defense before wingers but some seem to feel that this makes me beyond stoopid.

Oh well. It certainly isn't up to me. The Oilers will do what they do.

Yeah exactly you CAN get players like Jake Muzzin, that tier of d-man you can get. Instead our idiotic management throws away Taylor Hall, a no.1 overall pick and now a Hart trophy winner to get a Jake Muzzin.

See the difference? The Leafs didn't give away Mitch Marner to get Jake Muzzin.

We're not going to be a stud team from the back end barring a miracle where we end up drafting a superstar no.1 D or said player is some how already in our system and we don't even know it.

We are built from the forward end first, just like Toronto is. You can have success with that. You can win Cups with that (ask Pittsburgh). It just requires a different mentality.

We were robbed of a fun, entertaining team. The Leafs are really a 110+ point team, we could be a 97-100 point team that's fun to watch right now, who wouldn't take that over the garbage we get instead?

The Leafs are comparable to us whether people want to hear it or not, because they're built forward heavy for sure and their blue line is overall pretty weak when compared to a lot other contending teams. Their fans get to enjoy a 105 point team that can make the playoffs in their sleep though ... we get to enjoy this garbage. Why shouldn't we be upset about that?

 

[MaxR11]

HK, you might be right about a lot of stuff. And I do know the importance of culture. Not pro sport, but there’s no accident Golden Bears hockey has had the success they’ve had in their history. They have an amazing culture AND they bring in extremely talented players and get buy in.

But at this point, man, you’re like a religious zealot trying to shove religion down everyone’s throat. Every post is just the same. Can’t you guys agree to disagree and move on?

ya, i know a bit about the bears culture. they concern themselves a fair bit about building the person up first and then the hockey player. when you have a whole, mentally, emotionally healthy human, the athletics can reach a better potential. they get a lot of talent because the program is successful but also because the culture is great. they have certain ways of doing things that ensure success.

i don't feel this oilers org does a good enough job with nurturing the players a people first and building them to be better people socially, emotionally...even things as simple as proper sleep and nutrition. if you're not FULLY rested and recovered you suffer physical, mental and emotional issues. examples have been key guys like hall, ebs, jesse, yak etc.

 

[MaxR11]

Lol at this "culture" talk. There is a supposed losing culture because the team lacks good players aka they ****ing suck at hockey. Nicholson sucks ass at his job so he just wants to blame it on culture

Want a good culture? Bring in some talented hockey players and problem solved. There's no other way around it

how do most good teams bring in talent?.... through development of prospects. how do you develop prospects? good organizational culture in how you develop them.

has the drafting been questionable? for sure. but i believe they've botched a fair bit of player prospects because of poor development and that's culture.

 

[MaxR11]

Culture - management and team - is absolutely a major issue but the whole “culture eats strategy for breakfast” nonsense is drastically oversimplified and leaves a crucial point unsaid: “... all else being equal”. All else is most definitely not equal on the Oilers. There is a certain baseline threshold of talent that must be in place for culture to have any effect in terms of meaningful success. Culture is a second order concern when over half the roster is genuinely made up of AHL level players that are simply outclassed in talent and fundamentally unable to compete in nearly any given game. Bring in half-decent players with a legitimate fighting chance of winning any game they play and provide the few stars we have with the support they need and you will have properly set the input conditions for an improved team culture to take over.

As far as management culture issues are concerned, I agree that they need to rebuild the front office from soup to nuts. Everyone needs to understand that there are limits, though. Paging back I see several mentions of managerial sins related to players living and partying together, JP’s English language training, etc. Just in case anyone has forgotten, these players are generally all grown men and not obligated by law or CBA to follow their club’s every wish outside of work. The Oilers can suggest - even insist - on this living arrangement or that social integration approach, but in the end, these are adults and they make their own decisions. They only work for their employer. This is not junior and the players are not billeted and controlled by their parents and hockey clubs. Good management “culture” in this regard is a bit of a mirage - the fully grown adults who make up the roster also have to buy in.

no one is arguing they couldn't use a talent upgrade. i was calling for that right after the 2016-17 playoff run. they are partly in a hole with talent because they have no idea how to draft or develop players and that is a lot on organizational culture and how they handle those things. hopefully it's starting to turn with seemingly better picks and the success in bakersfield.... which scares me a bit because they could think help is on the way and we can keep a similar management group here.

i somewhat agree with the second paragraph. definitely part of it is on the players but again that's part of the ill culture in the room and org that they don't have strong leadership to get those players with issues in line. and if you have a prolong issue with a player a good organization would have ousted that player asap. i've always said the issues with hall are both on him and the organizational handling of him. the culture is/was rot from top to bottom and bottom to top.

 

[La Bamba]

how do most good teams bring in talent?.... through development of prospects. how do you develop prospects? good organizational culture in how you develop them.

has the drafting been questionable? for sure. but i believe they've botched a fair bit of player prospects because of poor development and that's culture.

Ok explain to me how you get good "culture" then?

 

[frag2]

Ok explain to me how you get good "culture" then?

Apparently its start by turfing stars because coaches "called them out"
Then turf said coaches and management

At least thats how he's been spelling it for the last 2.5 years

 

[FunkyChicken]

Ok explain to me how you get good "culture" then?

I believe terms like culture and character are phases that bad teams use to deflect blame.
When all your measurable statistics (wins, scoring, etc...) are poor, invent an unmeasurable statistic to protect those who put together a poor team.
"Yeah, I know we are slow, not very talented, can't make a pass. But you know what is really killing us? Voodoo...I mean culture. We put together a great team, so it's clearly not our fault."

 

[Soundwave]

I believe terms like culture and character are phases that bad teams use to deflect blame.
When all your measurable statistics (wins, scoring, etc...) are poor, invent an unmeasurable statistic to protect those who put together a poor team.
"Yeah, I know we are slow, not very talented, can't make a pass. But you know what is really killing us? Voodoo...I mean culture. We put together a great team, so it's clearly not our fault."

Exactly. Glad some people can see through this nonsense.

 

[GOilers88]

Lol at this "culture" talk. There is a supposed losing culture because the team lacks good players aka they ****ing suck at hockey. Nicholson sucks ass at his job so he just wants to blame it on culture

Want a good culture? Bring in some talented hockey players and problem solved. There's no other way around it

Winning some games one year doesn't change the stink of utter failure over the past 15 years. Saying "Yeah but they were good a couple years ago so the culture can't be the problem". One good year where nobody got injured and had career years doesn't change the fact that even that roster was an injury or two away from being exactly the same as what they are this year. Them making the playoffs once didn't change that. The upper management still refuses to do what needs to be done. Do you think any respectable hockey executive looks at Edmonton and goes f*** yeah I want to work for those guys!

No. They're the poster boys for how to run a hockey team and franchise into the ground despite being given so much high end talent everyone in the world now hates the organization. These guys are now helping to choose the next GM, even though they've already gone through 4 other GM's and like 8 head coaches.

But youre right. The fact that these guys are still around doesn't at all send the message that failure is acceptable. Not only acceptable but rewarded. Everyone can see that they will throw players, coaches and GM's under the bus before being held accountable themselves, and I'm sure that in no way at all trickles down the organization causing a cancer in what we all consider to be the clubs "culture". Good players that have come to Edmonton and vanished, as well as all the players that werent good enough for Management that were traded and worked out just fine for other teams. Purely coincidental. They just never brought in the right guys I guess.

You and Soundwave are right. Just bring in more different players. That'll fix everything. Can't believe nobody else has thought of this in the last 15 years.

 

[Soundwave]

Winning some games one year doesn't change the stink of utter failure over the past 15 years. Saying "Yeah but they were good a couple years ago so the culture can't be the problem". One good year where nobody got injured and had career years doesn't change the fact that even that roster was an injury or two away from being exactly the same as what they are this year. Them making the playoffs once didn't change that. The upper management still refuses to do what needs to be done. Do you think any respectable hockey executive looks at Edmonton and goes **** yeah I want to work for those guys!

No. They're the poster boys for how to run a hockey team and franchise into the ground despite being given so much high end talent everyone in the world now hates the organization. These guys are now helping to choose the next GM, even though they've already gone through 4 other GM's and like 8 head coaches.

But youre right. The fact that these guys are still around doesn't at all send the message that failure is acceptable. Not only acceptable but rewarded. Everyone can see that they will throw players, coaches and GM's under the bus before being held accountable themselves, and I'm sure that in no way at all trickles down the organization causing a cancer in what we all consider to be the clubs "culture". Good players that have come to Edmonton and vanished, as well as all the players that werent good enough for Management that were traded and worked out just fine for other teams. Purely coincidental. They just never brought in the right guys I guess.

You and Soundwave are right. Just bring in more different players. That'll fix everything. Can't believe nobody else has thought of this in the last 15 years.

They have never in 15 years other than that 2006 team and 2017 teams (by virtue of large over-performances by Letestu and Maroon in particular) actually had more than one scoring line. Ever.

This is like a person who says they've tried 50 different diet plans and 20 different workout styles but still insists on eating more calories than they burn off ... you will never lose weight. It's literally impossible, I don't care whether you claim to be on the Atkins diet, South Beach diet, Keto diet, Kiss My Ass Diet ... you will never ever lose weight if you keep eating more calories than what you body burns in a day.

They hire incompetent people in management and that results in a roster that doesn't ever have depth, so they keep spinning their wheels in the mud. They cannot like other teams acquire actual talent beyond one line that scores and the best they can do on D is a D corps that maybe doesn't drown if everything goes perfect for them and there's no injuries.

But it's not a voodoo curse, it's a predictable result of bad management, in fact it's pretty well earned. Just like a fat person earns being fat by their intake of food, the Oilers deserve to be in the bind they are in.

They cannot reliably get any good players unless they are drafting in the top 3. They cannot trade, they cannot draft past that spot very well, most if not all the UFAs they sign they are deeply regretful of signing within 18 months.

5 years ago they were a one line team with Taylor Hall asked to carry the brunt of the load with maybe 2 other good players around him and a bunch of crap past that ... 5 years later they are a one line team with Connor McDavid asked to carry the brunt of the load with 2 other good players around him and a bunch of crap past that.

 

[McFlash97]

Culture is overrated. The team lacks quality depth. Solid players throughout the lineup that can think and process the game at a high level. Simply bringing in Gagner has made a noticeable difference. Reason being...its someone who can stick handle pass and think the game. So imagine 2 or 3 gagner level players who can skate and shoot.

Nicholson is a f***ing clueless idiot...and anyone agreeing with him is in the same boat.

 

[Soundwave]

Culture is overrated. The team lacks quality depth. Solid players throughout the lineup that can think and process the game at a high level. Simply bringing in Gagner has made a noticeable difference. Reason being...its someone who can stick handle pass and think the game. So imagine 2 or 3 gagner level players who can skate and shoot.

Nicholson is a ****ing clueless idiot...and anyone agreeing with him is in the same boat.

That little give and go that he had with McDavid ... I mean I looked at that play and was like no one else on our roster other than Leon and RNH would even think to make that play.

Plays like that from anyone other than our three Cs are so rare that I actually remember them specifically a week after the fact, lol. And it wasn't even a goal, lol. That's how sad this team is skill wise.

And Gagner is nothing special as a player at all, it just goes to show how many guys on this team have zero creativity, inventiveness, or awareness on this team at all.

 

[Joey Moss]

I worry more about the D. Just not enough skill back there. Not enough ability to move a puck. It makes life too hard for all our mediocre to poor forwards, and it also takes away from the games of our good forwards.

The level of skill we need to add at forward is far higher than it should have to be because of how our D are unable to consistently help push the pace into the offensive zone. You need the highest tier elite forwards to consistently overcome that shortcoming. Until the D is improved, we are gonna keep bringing in guys that have a history of scoring 10-20 goals, and they will end up <10 goal scorers here, or just a big fat 0 like a Rieder, lol.

This team is just so behind the curve of the league in how our D group is constructed. I would argue what they are instructed to do could also be creating a handicap as well, but that doesn't excuse the lack of puck moving ability.

I agree with this to an extent.

It feels like our defense was just assembled without any real plan. They just wanted to add guys and hope they took on a role. We don't have a single defenseman with the exception of maybe Klefbom who is capable of getting a puck through traffic and on net. None of them with the exception of Klefbom and maybe Sekera are able to make a quick breakout pass tape to tape. Often our defenseman will re-group and make a pass D to D instead of up the ice while our forwards are regrouping with them. They're way too slow in their decision making. None of them with the exception of Nurse are able to rush a puck out of our end. The finished product is a group of defenseman who are not skilled enough to transition quickly and this has more to do with us being a slow team than actual player speed.

The new GM needs to be able to re-tool this D-core and find some players who can transition quickly and get pucks through traffic. Bouchard and Jones coming will help.

 

[McFlash97]

That little give and go that he had with McDavid ... I mean I looked at that play and was like no one else on our roster other than Leon and RNH would even think to make that play.

Plays like that from anyone other than our three Cs are so rare that I actually remember them specifically a week after the fact, lol. And it wasn't even a goal, lol. That's how sad this team is skill wise.

And Gagner is nothing special as a player at all, it just goes to show how many guys on this team have zero creativity, inventiveness, or awareness on this team at all.

Zero creativity, inventiveness and awareness in management and player scouting is also an issue.

 

[Soundwave]

Zero creativity, inventiveness and awareness in management and player scouting is also an issue.

It stems for a managerial arrogance in the sense ... they think because they have some no.1 overalls that they're entitled to be one of the more talented teams in the league.

They get carried away and then the logic turns into "well, now that we have McDavid, lets focus on our other pick on drafting a coke machine d-man no. 248 to our prospect pool".

They think in very stupid terms and get over confident any time good fortune smiles on their stupid ass.

A smart organization in that situation says "lets run the table here and load up on top end talent" that's how the 80s Oilers became the 80s Oilers because they didn't just get Gretzky they ran the damn table on the 79 and 80 drafts.

"We don't need a Barzal here! We got Connor! We're set for talent! We need a stay at home high KARAKTAR D like Griff Reinhart!"

"We don't need Taylor Hall any more! We have enough forward talent! We need some D, quick just get someone anyone like Larsson and we'll sign Lucic and call it a year!".

"We made it to round 2 of the playoffs! Stanley Cups here we come!!! Lets lose another trade but we a have a rock solid foundation here built on character!"

They are moronic in getting ahead of themselves and thinking they are home free, and then realize 2-3 years later "oh shit, we really screwed that up, we weren't set there at all. We really over-estimated".

Next GM better not turn into like a freaking 14 year old girl at a One Direction concert every time something good seems to happen for the team. Have some damn objectivity and don't pat yourself on the back prematurely.