Is Vilardi the most expendable prospect?

[Raccoon Jesus]

I've been watching Reign games.
The recent prospect lines are Madden -Turcotte- Vilardi and JAD - QB - Fagemo. They are trying to keep the kids together to build chemistry while the Tkachev-Tynan- Frk line do the most damage.

When Tynan got called up Turcotte was the #1 center . Alex has 1 point in the last 7 games. But let's blame the vets.
Between Turcotte and Byfield they combine for 4 pts in last 20 games. Let's blame the vets.


Wondering when fans are going to realize that player development is the issue.
Again.... it takes talent to extract the talent from these players. We need to add offensive minded development coaches. Wrobo should of came in with his own crew.

Do I need to run the numbers again for you?

Most of that damage is on the PP that is NOT being attended in meaningful ways by the guys you're going after.

Yeah, Turcotte hit a dry streak lately--that means he was outscoring the rest by even MORE at even strength before the recent streak.

People agree that player development has some issues--when are you going to realize that player deployment (usage) is part of development? It's why some of us are so annoyed that we're taking top six talents and plugging them on the 4th line. If you want a guy to be a top-sixer--let him be the guy! Player development would be pointless if we were training guys to be top-line PP wingers in the NHL and then not even giving them top-six minutes/PP time at the AHL level. You need both things. I don't see how you can separate the two.

 

[Mats26]

Do I need to run the numbers again for you?

Most of that damage is on the PP that is NOT being attended in meaningful ways by the guys you're going after.

Yeah, Turcotte hit a dry streak lately--that means he was outscoring the rest by even MORE at even strength before the recent streak.

People agree that player development has some issues--when are you going to realize that player deployment (usage) is part of development? It's why some of us are so annoyed that we're taking top six talents and plugging them on the 4th line. If you want a guy to be a top-sixer--let him be the guy! Player development would be pointless if we were training guys to be top-line PP wingers in the NHL and then not even giving them top-six minutes/PP time at the AHL level. You need both things. I don't see how you can separate the two.

4 pts in 20 AHL games by our 2 top prospects is all the numbers you need to run. If they can't produce, they won't get top PP ice time but they still use them on PP2 as well as PP1 when Tynan was up. I said in other posts, they need to step up and be noticeable on the scoresheet at one point. Vilardi has 7 pts in 9 games with same ice time. I expect our other top kids to get going.

If you think dropping Alex or QB in a top 6 role right now in the NHL will make them produce, I got a Vilardi story to sell you.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

4 pts in 20 AHL games by our 2 top prospects is all the numbers you need to run. If they can't produce, they won't get top PP ice time but they still use them on PP2 as well as PP1 when Tynan was up. I said in other posts, they need to step up and be noticeable on the scoresheet at one point. Vilardi has 7 pts in 9 games with same ice time. I expect our other top kids to get going.

If you think dropping Alex or QB in a top 6 role right now in the NHL will make them produce, I got a Vilardi story to sell you.

Using Byfield's conditioning stint as part of the 'development plan' tells me everything I need to know about your argument, no need to sell anything else, thanks.

As I pointed out previously, Turcotte is outscoring all of them at ES except the late-20 year olds. But...you're content to blame everyone but the staff.

If you want the guy to develop a powerplay touch at the next level, it makes no sense to bury him behind the AHL lifers when he's outproducing everyone else given his time. But it sounds like youre one of those "grr he's got to EARN it" folks so we're just going to talk in circles. And I should have seen that the moment you started putting words in my mouth.

Quoting myself from the actual Turcotte thread, it's basically line for line what happened in here:

"It goes more like this:

" Turcotte isn't scoring as much as I'd like."

'well, Turcotte is being shoved down a line or two by Tynan/Burke/Frk/Tkachev and isn't getting PP1 time, even though he's outproducing everyone but the seasoned AHL MVPs at ES.'

"He needs to force mgmt to pay attention then"

'he has, he's outscoring everyone but the guys getting PP1 time. I'd like to see him get powerplay 1 time and prime scoring minutes next to scorers to really show out.'

"WTF you guys just want to hand him ice time? He hasn't proven anything!!!!1111!"


Imagine thinking asking for your bluechip prospect to get AHL line 1 and powerplay time is controversial... "

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Some people just want to chicken-and-egg these guys into oblivion, like the folks still holding the first less-than-10 games of the season against Vilardi, Tkachev, Andersson, et. al.

He's gotta outscore the PP1 guys if he wants their time, but he won't get PP1 time. Okay, well...that's exactly what's happening on the NHL roster right now where the bottom six is being more productive and better possession at even strength than the top six and in half the minutes and they're not getting more love for it. That ignores matchups obviously, but it's an illustration of how much of a gap there is to fill at that level and the trickle down is now hurting the AHL kids too, some people just don't want to see it and seem to believe development is solely on the player themselves.

 

[Mats26]

Some people just want to chicken-and-egg these guys into oblivion, like the folks still holding the first less-than-10 games of the season against Vilardi, Tkachev, Andersson, et. al.

He's gotta outscore the PP1 guys if he wants their time, but he won't get PP1 time. Okay, well...that's exactly what's happening on the NHL roster right now where the bottom six is being more productive and better possession at even strength than the top six and in half the minutes and they're not getting more love for it. That ignores matchups obviously, but it's an illustration of how much of a gap there is to fill at that level and the trickle down is now hurting the AHL kids too, some people just don't want to see it and seem to believe development is solely on the player themselves.

How did Kupari , Kaliyev and Durzi for that matter get on the roster then? They lead the Reign in scoring at one point. Durzi lead the d men. As far as I can tell it is the same coaching staff as last year and a much better team. It's fine if they need some time but blaming Tynan for slow development...come on.

 

[kilowatt]

4 pts in 20 AHL games by our 2 top prospects is all the numbers you need to run. If they can't produce, they won't get top PP ice time but they still use them on PP2 as well as PP1 when Tynan was up. I said in other posts, they need to step up and be noticeable on the scoresheet at one point. Vilardi has 7 pts in 9 games with same ice time. I expect our other top kids to get going.

If you think dropping Alex or QB in a top 6 role right now in the NHL will make them produce, I got a Vilardi story to sell you.

Then what about Vilardi? He's got 7 points in 9 games this year in Ontario after scoring 25 in 32 in 19-20. All anyone proved with Gabe is that pairing him with Kaliyev and Tkachev and giving them bottom six minutes against some of the best teams in the league didn't work. What should they do with him?

 

[Schmooley]

How did Kupari , Kaliyev and Durzi for that matter get on the roster then? They lead the Reign in scoring at one point. Durzi lead the d men. As far as I can tell it is the same coaching staff as last year and a much better team. It's fine if they need some time but blaming Tynan for slow development...come on.

Kaliyev and Durzi are offensive players whos job it is to put up points. Turcotte and Byfield are being taught to be 200 ft centermen. Vilardi gets points but when they ask him to play 200 ft in the NHL he has some troubles. The Kings knew they were drafting responsible centers and not scoring wingers with the Turcotte and Byfield picks. Relax a bit my man.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

How did Kupari , Kaliyev and Durzi for that matter get on the roster then? They lead the Reign in scoring at one point. Durzi lead the d men. As far as I can tell it is the same coaching staff as last year and a much better team. It's fine if they need some time but blaming Tynan for slow development...come on.

You said it yourself, they led the team in scoring--a team that doesn't have the veteran guys that this years team does, so different situation--AND it required injuries to the NHL roster to put them on the 3rd and 4th lines rather than the top six roles they were blowing away the AHL with. And guess what--the very thing I'm arguing for is exactly why they were leading the team in scoring and why Turcotte was pacing them last year as well: Kaliyev, Kupari, Turcotte, Byfield, and Durzi were leading the time in power play points, the very thing missing this year in Turcotte's case.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Merry Christmas you filthy animals!

 

[apocalypse]

I think Vilardi would be at his best as an offense-only 2nd line center on most teams, but given the circumstances here, his best shot to help the LA Kings would be on the wing - or in trade to a team that will play him up the middle and return a player better suited for the wing.

This isn't an instance of a player being sent down and pouting about it, its a player who seems confused as to why he has to change the position he thrived in that got him drafted so high.

Can't blame the Kings for drafting Turcotte and Byfield, they were the right choices in their spots. But we can blame them for having two top veteran centers locked in sandbagging upward movement.

You want to keep Anze as your #1, cool. But putting offensive wingers with Danault instead of Vilardi or Byfield says one thing - playoffs mean more than prospect development.

I have a love/doubt thing going on with Danault. I love his game, glad he will be here in a checking role for years, and really want to be happy he is here, but there is just no need for him AND Kopitar if you plan on developing more than one high-end center. And the Kings drafted 3 in 4 years, with the missing year there being Kupari who seems more effective as a center than a winger too.

What in hell is this team thinking?

Danault is the reason for any of the success the Kings have this season.

 

[NikF]

Yes--that's because the 'progress' is smoke-and-mirrors as it's mostly based on a top-six with an average age of 30 rather than youngsters taking key roles.

Hell look what it took on defense to get the youth in--needed literally all the vets to get hurt/sick and even then they waived Clague over Maatta. Byfield is basically stuck playing 3C/4C until either Kopitar or Danault flat out dies at this rate, and Turcotte/Vilardi aren't even going to sniff the NHL, all while teams like the Devils are getting mileage out of Dawson f***ing Mercer. The lack of faith/trust in their own draft selections to work into key roles is either 1. very telling or 2. self-sabotaging and neither one is good.

Usually teams try to maximize the talent they have in the pipeline. There's a fine balance between bringing prospects along at the right pace, but also giving them the opportunities they need. The feeling you get with the Kings is almost the opposite of trying to maximize their talent, it's like they make these high picks and then their disposition towards them is "prove to us we weren't wrong". Which is something that might have worked in 80s or even 90s, but doesn't work in 21st century anymore. Not only do young people not respond to that kind of coaching anymore, but teams no longer take such conservative/negative stances towards their most prized talents, it's just counter-productive and frankly idiotic.

You want to build a guy's confidence up and let him adjust to competition, not throw an excessive amount of barriers in front of him and watch him with a sceptical eye, pat yourself on the back when he makes a mistake and then play him sheltered on 3rd line. That's not really "development", that's just being scared. When guys like Byfield, Turcotte, Vilardi come up there should be a natural level of excitement for everyone involved, don't immediately attack the guy and plant his ass on 3rd or 4th line because he made a few mistakes or isn't effective for a few games. But that would entail a change where the vets stop being treated like sacred cows and the focus is on handing the keys of the franchise to the next wave of talent. Even if they get punted out of 1st round this season, that's of limited utility when there is nobody below 24 among your top 9 scorers.

 

[Statto]

I'm agreeing--I'm just saying he's almost PPG despite whatever is going on internally or externally, so that's a good sign.

Fair enough and you’re absolutely right.

 

[LAKings88]

Usually teams try to maximize the talent they have in the pipeline. There's a fine balance between bringing prospects along at the right pace, but also giving them the opportunities they need. The feeling you get with the Kings is almost the opposite of trying to maximize their talent, it's like they make these high picks and then their disposition towards them is "prove to us we weren't wrong". Which is something that might have worked in 80s or even 90s, but doesn't work in 21st century anymore. Not only do young people not respond to that kind of coaching anymore, but teams no longer take such conservative/negative stances towards their most prized talents, it's just counter-productive and frankly idiotic.

You want to build a guy's confidence up and let him adjust to competition, not throw an excessive amount of barriers in front of him and watch him with a sceptical eye, pat yourself on the back when he makes a mistake and then play him sheltered on 3rd line. That's not really "development", that's just being scared. When guys like Byfield, Turcotte, Vilardi come up there should be a natural level of excitement for everyone involved, don't immediately attack the guy and plant his ass on 3rd or 4th line because he made a few mistakes or isn't effective for a few games. But that would entail a change where the vets stop being treated like sacred cows and the focus is on handing the keys of the franchise to the next wave of talent. Even if they get punted out of 1st round this season, that's of limited utility when there is nobody below 24 among your top 9 scorers.

Who have they done this too?

Vilardi looks like a monster one game and invisible the next. They are trying to convert him to wing which I guess could be argued as stupid but I think they target other guys as better center options. Seems like they still want him in the system and will attempt to keep him if they can. I don’t think Byfield or Turcotte are ready to step in as first line centers. Danault is a good signing and can move down to 3c when the time is right.

Turcotte is a good prospect but unlikely to produce like Zegras.

Byfield has the tools to be great but has never really shown consistent domination. He seems to be the same mold as Kopitar honestly but Kopi is great at using his big frame to protect, not sure Byfield is there yet.

These guys have yet to have a full role on the team and we are already bemoaning their usage.

On top of everything, injuries and Covid years have had an effect on all three center prospects.

 

[Statto]

Vilardi looks like a monster one game and invisible the next. They are trying to convert him to wing which I guess could be argued as stupid

Much of this board thinks that’s his best position in the NHL (I’m not yet convinced). So this could go either position wise but giving it a look is fine and either way needs to light a fire in Gabe.

Turcotte is a good prospect but unlikely to produce like Zegras.

Different type of player, it’s an apple vs oranges comparison. Turcotte is a 2 way, culture defining guy and possible captain. Zegras is a scorer. Both great players, but different. Turcotte needs time to get stronger, not so much as getting ‘better. He’s close but people using Zegras as a stick to beat him with is wrong IMO. Especially as at the draft he was the consensus pick from the vast majority (I don’t care who the 4 posters were that disagreed, my point still stands).

Byfield has the tools to be great but has never really shown consistent domination.

Disagree here. QB was dominant in junior, on a very poor side with little support. Once he got past the ‘figuring it out’ stage in the AHL he was dominant. In preseason he became our best player in stretches and he’s only been in the AHL getting his conditioning together.

I’m not so much arguing on everything but expanding on some of it.

 

[apocalypse]

Byfield has the tools to be great but has never really shown consistent domination. He seems to be the same mold as Kopitar honestly but Kopi is great at using his big frame to protect, not sure Byfield is there yet.

When has Kopi used his big frame to protect the puck? I hardly ever see Kopi possess the puck. He usually gets it for a couple seconds then dishes it off. Not really a puck possession monster.

 

[Mats26]

Then what about Vilardi? He's got 7 points in 9 games this year in Ontario after scoring 25 in 32 in 19-20. All anyone proved with Gabe is that pairing him with Kaliyev and Tkachev and giving them bottom six minutes against some of the best teams in the league didn't work. What should they do with him?

Well in Vilardi's case he needs to play RW now. An experiment with hopes that it will succeed. Took Kempe around 4 years to settle in as a winger when the org forced him to play center for years, we are now seeing some benefits in that move to wing.

The fact Gabe can still produce on the Reign on a kid line with Madden-Turcotte-Vilardi and not just with Frk is good news. His effort and body language are still issues and he really needs to work on consistency. He still has the most high end skill out of all the prospects, he just needs to figure things out and simplify his game. The biggest mistake was to give him the 2C when he wasn't ready, he needed a season or less with Wrobo before getting those hard NHL minutes. His numbers in the AHL and NHL are decent and there is still hope he can crack the top 6. At worse he can play RW with Danault to cover for his defensive lapses, at RW he just needs to cover the point D men.

If he shows some progress in the areas I described, I would try him for few games with Tynan at C and him at RW. Confidence is a huge factor in getting these guys going. Drop Frk with Madden-Turcotte or Byfield and it might benefit a few other prospects as well.

 

[LAKings88]

When has Kopi used his big frame to protect the puck? I hardly ever see Kopi possess the puck. He usually gets it for a couple seconds then dishes it off. Not really a puck possession monster.

Dude always does it, watch his board work.

 

[kilowatt]

Well in Vilardi's case he needs to play RW now. An experiment with hopes that it will succeed. Took Kempe around 4 years to settle in as a winger when the org forced him to play center for years, we are now seeing some benefits in that move to wing.

The fact Gabe can still produce on the Reign on a kid line with Madden-Turcotte-Vilardi and not just with Frk is good news. His effort and body language are still issues and he really needs to work on consistency. He still has the most high end skill out of all the prospects, he just needs to figure things out and simplify his game. The biggest mistake was to give him the 2C when he wasn't ready, he needed a season or less with Wrobo before getting those hard NHL minutes. His numbers in the AHL and NHL are decent and there is still hope he can crack the top 6. At worse he can play RW with Danault to cover for his defensive lapses, at RW he just needs to cover the point D men.

If he shows some progress in the areas I described, I would try him for few games with Tynan at C and him at RW. Confidence is a huge factor in getting these guys going. Drop Frk with Madden-Turcotte or Byfield and it might benefit a few other prospects as well.

Yeah — all good points, and that's really my gripe with the organization at the moment. We brought in a bunch of veterans, which I thought was a good move... because I assumed we'd be using those veterans as anchors to pair with said rookies. Guys who have been around the block, work hard, and know what to do when the going gets tough. Tynan is a great example — have him center two good rookies. Frk is a great example as well, stick him on the wing with Turcotte or Byfield at center. Instead of having three rookies go out together and saying "good luck". It's the same issue on the NHL roster. If we have guys that we think should be in the top six, play them in the top six. We have two of the top ten defensive centers in the league. Put Kaliyev and Vilardi in there and let them figure it out!

Side note, I think Vilardi should change to #73, his number in Kingston, and in honor of another slow-footed scoring right winger

 

[lumbergh]

When has Kopi used his big frame to protect the puck? I hardly ever see Kopi possess the puck. He usually gets it for a couple seconds then dishes it off. Not really a puck possession monster.

You’re talking about Gasper Kopitar, right? Is there another Kopi or are you watching a different game?

 

[raswilliam]

You’re talking about Gasper Kopitar, right? Is there another Kopi or are you watching a different game?

Clearly he's referring to Gustl Kopitar

 

[kilowatt]

When has Kopi used his big frame to protect the puck? I hardly ever see Kopi possess the puck. He usually gets it for a couple seconds then dishes it off. Not really a puck possession monster.

That's literally the best part of his game

 

[SufferingSelfCreated]

When has Kopi used his big frame to protect the puck? I hardly ever see Kopi possess the puck. He usually gets it for a couple seconds then dishes it off. Not really a puck possession monster.

This is one of the worst takes I've ever seen. No offense, but it's like you missed his entire career.

 

[No Name The Nameless]

When has Kopi used his big frame to protect the puck? I hardly ever see Kopi possess the puck. He usually gets it for a couple seconds then dishes it off. Not really a puck possession monster.

Uh oh

 

[robitaillefan]

This is one of the worst takes I've ever seen. No offense, but it's like you missed his entire career.

I’d say

 

[Mats26]

Vilardi is still a beast. 0.83 PTs/G is tops among our kids in the AHL. With ~50 games left to play for the Kings, I think we'll see him called up down the stretch with a new attitude and confidence.