Is this the deepest Rangers team we've had post-lockout?

[Bardof425*]

Wanting a 3rd line that can provide offense is great. We all want that. The reality of the roster is an entirely different thing. Brassard? Pouliot? These guys have been duds when slotted on the 3rd line. They provide nothing at all for this team in terms of consistent offense, or anything else for that matter. You thinking they might be able to provide offense flies in the face of reality. Its what fuels this "anyone but Boyle" mentality of yours.

Last season, you were advocating slotting Jeff Halpern above Boyle because he scored 40 points a decade ago. How'd that gemstone of a thought work out? Halpern was waived a couple of weeks later.
If Brassard can consistently contribute offensively from the 3rd line - enough to mask his defensive shortcomings, I'll agree with you. Until then, its just a viewpoint born out of a fallacy.

Actually the main reason I liked Halpern over Boyle was the skating aspect although the fact that he had a history of production was helpful. How did it work out? How did everything work out in the shortened season? Red Herring. I also remember BB getting benched for several games last year and the team went on a tear; Why isn't that part of your history lesson?

Torts was a huge Boyle supporter; you can't draw conclusions on player value based on the ice time afforded by Torts. With that said, he had to be pretty bad last year to get himself benched. Put him on the 4th line and we can stop this merry go round.

 

[eco's bones]

People like to discount things based on sample size, and I understand the argument. But it's important to remember that the playoffs are a small sample size. At the very most, a team will play 28 games.

If Brassard only scores .5 points per game during the regular season but then gets hot in the playoffs and scores a PPG like he did last year, I'll gladly take it. If Nash only puts up 35 points because he missed half the year with a concussion, but then plays well in the playoffs, I'll gladly take it.

Right now, as a team, we have scored 19 goals in our last 5 games. Yes, that is a small sample size, but that could be 1 round of the playoffs. And that's without Nash and without Brassard contributing much. I think we need Pouliot to step up or we need to find a better option for the 3rd line to get some more goals out of our bottom 6, but regardless, we have been scoring goals lately. I don't care who scores them as long as they play for the Rangers. I'd be just fine with 6 players with 50+ points rather than 2 players with 70+ and everyone else under 40.

All that being said, the real depth of this team won't be known until the playoffs. Scoring goals is always harder in the playoffs. That's when we need those 3rd and 4th line guys to step up and contribute.

Yeah--it might be taking making the playoffs for granted but real success comes down to playoff success. Brassard came through for us big time last year and that's not easy to do. Regular season stats are great but playoff stats are better. Who scores the goals and points now matter but once you make the playoffs whoever does the scoring matters more. The main thing is that we score more and if the scoring is spread around three semi-dangerous lines that can be a lot more useful than having one very dangerous line.

I completely agree with all of the above. Honestly, I'm not sure how you could argue any other team was deeper (unless you have an axe to grind).

It looks like both Nash and Moore will be back soon. That means this team fields:

Kreider-Stepan-Zuccarello
Hagelin-Richards-Callahan
Pouliot-Brassard-Nash
Boyle-Moore-Dorsett
(Miller, Pyatt)

McDonagh-Girardi
Staal-Stralman
Moore-Del Zotto
(Falk)

Lundqvist
Talbot

I know everyone loved our grinders in 11-12, but that is one hell of a fourth line - and there's no question that the top 6 is better as are the bottom pair, Del Zotto's issues on the right side notwithstanding. You've got Rick Nash (or Callahan) on the third line for crying out loud. And that's with Kristo, Lindberg, Fast, Hrivik, Powe, Asham as forwards and Johnson, Allen, McIlrath as defensemen in the minors. Even taking into account injuries, you've got enough extras and kids to keep the team as competitive as they have been over the last 12 games or so (as evidenced by the fact that they didn't have Nash that whole time). Clearly the deepest we've been.

Furthermore, that's without major contributions from Brassard, Pouliot or Miller as of yet. I think we'll see a lot more out of Brassard once Nash gets back and I'm also hopefully that Miller's most recent game will be the start of something good, which eventually will force Pouliot out of the lineup. (Pouliot improving... eh, I'm a lot less optimistic about that.)

I'm one of those who thinks you can never have enough NHL able defensemen when the playoffs come around. Rangers made kind of a run for the cup in 11-12 but we had too many nail biters because our offense and pwp weren't effective which led to too many OT games--some of which went long into overtime and not having a reliable #6 d-man hurt us a lot. Basically Staal, Girardi, McDonagh, Del Zotto, Stralman and Bickel and Eminger was having injury issues. Now we have McDonagh, Staal, Girardi, Stralman, Del Zotto, Moore, Falk, Johnson (who has almost 300 games of NHL experience)--two good prospects in McIlrath and Allen and Bickel and Syvret. Rangers have options instead of none.

Rangers may also have 3 pretty good offensive lines if healthy with Boyle (a good playoff player) centering the 4th. So if we're healthy we might just do okay. Would like to see a bit more grit though.

 

[Thirty One]

I also remember BB getting benched for several games last year and the team went on a tear; Why isn't that part of your history lesson?

They won three games. The Rangers just won three games without Nash. Nash bad. Sample size bad.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Actually the main reason I liked Halpern over Boyle was the skating aspect although the fact that he had a history of production was helpful. How did it work out? How did everything work out in the shortened season? Red Herring. I also remember BB getting benched for several games last year and the team went on a tear; Why isn't that part of your history lesson?

Torts was a huge Boyle supporter; you can't draw conclusions on player value based on the ice time afforded by Torts. With that said, he had to be pretty bad last year to get himself benched. Put him on the 4th line and we can stop this merry go round.

Hey, I wish Boyle was on the 4th line too, that'd be great. Unfortunately, the realities of the roster play into most people's account.

And that reality, for the past couple of seasons, is that Brian Boyle is a top 9 option in terms of value to the team.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Brassard has been playing with crappy offensive players. He's not a superstar that can make crappy offensive players look good. Can we wait till Nash returns before we say that Boyle is a better option as the 3rd line center especially after Brassard looked really good last year with talent?

 

[smoneil]

Brassard has been playing with crappy offensive players. He's not a superstar that can make crappy offensive players look good. Can we wait till Nash returns before we say that Boyle is a better option as the 3rd line center especially after Brassard looked really good last year with talent?

Agreed. Brassard is never going to be in the same league as Stepan, but he's miles ahead of Boyle (and I like Boyle).

 

[McRanger]

At what point are we making the comparison? The team that we had going into '11-'12 ended up very different than expected. Guys like Dubinsky and Anisimov (and to a lesser extent Boyle) took steps backwards offensively while guys like Hagelin, who joined later in the season, excelled.

We also started the 11-12 season with the idea that by the All Star Break our defense would be deep, but that was until we lost Sauer. And that was a big loss. I think that defense with a healthy Sauer and Staal is better than the one we have now, but obviously it didn't work out that way. The one we have now is better than what we had in the '12 playoffs, but we'll see if with injuries/trades it stays that way.

Forwards are as tough to gauge. We are not as deep with defensive forwards or grinder as we were in 11-12. But I think the overall talent level is higher. Or potenatially higher. Team needs to get and stay healthy, and guys like Kreider and Zucc need to prove they can survive a full season. I'm also curious as to what Brassard will produce getting 2nd/3rd line ES and 2nd PP minutes. He'll likely have Pouliot on his left, but he could end up with Callahan or Nash on his right. Or maybe he ends up with Richards on his left again. Its hard to figure because Nash is still out and we have an extremely odd "1st line" that no one is in a hurry to break up.

Hagelin (GP:64 G:14 A:24 P:38)-Richards (GP:82 G:25 A:41 P:66)-Gaborik (GP:82 G:41 A:35 P:76)
Anisimov(GP:79 G:16 A:20 P:36)-Stepan(GP:82 G:17 A:34 P:51)-Callahan(GP:76 G:29 A:25 P:54)
Dubinsky(GP:77 G:10 A:24 P:34)-Boyle(GP:82 G:11 A:15 P:26)-Fedotenko(GP:73 G:9 A:11 P:20)
Rupp(GP:60 G:4 A:1 P:5)-Mitchell(GP:63 G:5 A:11 P:16)-Prust(GP:82 G:5 A:12 P:17)

Hagelin-Richards-Nash
Kreider-Stepan-Zuccarello
Pouliot-Brassard-Callahan
Moore-Boyle-Dorsett

It is early but its my opinion that with all its pieces in play this is a more mature and talented (and better coached) team than we had in '11-'12.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Agreed. Brassard is never going to be in the same league as Stepan, but he's miles ahead of Boyle (and I like Boyle).

Miles ahead offensively (though not producing), and miles behind defensively.

Preventing goals is just as important as scoring them

 

[smoneil]

Miles ahead offensively (though not producing), and miles behind defensively.

Preventing goals is just as important as scoring them

Also agreed. With our forward depth, though, I guess I just think it makes more sense to have three scoring lines and a 4th that is a shut-down line (as opposed to the goon-it-up lines that we've had in the past). I see them getting a more regular shift than we've seen in past seasons. I don't really think of the line numbers in terms of promotions or demotions, but more in terms of role.

With this team:

Kreider-Stepan-Zucc
Hagelin-Richards-Callahan
Pouliot-Brassard-Nash
Pyatt-Boyle-Dorsett

It just makes sense for Brass to be on with those wingers and Boyle to be on the more defensive-minded line. Frankly, depending on how they play on any given night, EITHER of the first three lines could end up seeing "1st line" minutes.

If Miller can force the issue by sticking, I'd actually love to see:

Kreider-Stepan-Zuc
Richards-Brassard-Nash
Hagelin-Miller-Callahan
Pou/Pyatt-Boyle-Dorsett

 

[OverTheCap]

I think Boyle has outplayed Brassard this season. He has only one point less than Brassard (and has played with crappier linemates than Brassard), has a much better faceoff percentage, and has been good on the forecheck. Brassard hasn't been that noticeable offensively and is questionable defensively at best. He has the potential to be a much better offensive player than we've seen this season, he needs to pick it up.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

I think Boyle has outplayed Brassard this season. He has only one point less than Brassard (and has played with crappier linemates than Brassard), has a much better faceoff percentage, and has been good on the forecheck. Brassard hasn't been that noticeable offensively and is questionable defensively at best. He has the potential to be a much better offensive player than we've seen this season, he needs to pick it up.

I agree. And Brassard started the season playing with Zuccarello.

 

[Thirty One]

Miles ahead offensively (though not producing), and miles behind defensively.
I wouldn't say miles ahead offensively. Their ESP/60:
Preventing goals is just as important as scoring them

[table="head;width=500"]Season|Boyle|Brassard
2013-14|0.90|0.88
2012-13|0.54|1.65
2011-12|1.43|1.59
2010-11|1.47|1.77
[/table]

 

[Thirty One]

^ "I wouldn't say miles ahead offensively. Their ESP/60:"

That part is obviously supposed to be outside the quotes.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

^ "I wouldn't say miles ahead offensively. Their ESP/60:"

That part is obviously supposed to be outside the quotes.

Well, in Bardof's defense, I don't think his stringent eye-test is incorporated into your fancy statistics.

 

[McRanger]

Brassard was one of the few Rangers who looked good the first few games. He set Pouliot up with a few chances that should have been goals. And he looked good when he played briefly with Richards and Callahan before the latter got injured.

After that he was a mess. He's made one or two Malik-level defensive zone passes.

 

[slipknottin]

But yet you did. That is the basic fact underlying this back and forth. You predicted noone would get to 50. Yikes.

The problem is comparing guys who did to guys who could.

I will always have an issue doing that.

Like I said earlier in this thread.

Look at that 11 team 16 games in. Their defense was

Staal Girardi
McDonagh Sauer
Stralman MDZ

MDZ was tearing it up, Staal was healthy, Sauer was playing extremely well.

Forward halfway through the season, Staal is concussed, Sauer's career is over, MDZ slows down.

Lots can change quickly.

You cant reasonably compare a team at the end of a long season + playoffs with a team less than 20 games in.

 

[slipknottin]

Brassard has been playing with crappy offensive players. He's not a superstar that can make crappy offensive players look good. Can we wait till Nash returns before we say that Boyle is a better option as the 3rd line center especially after Brassard looked really good last year with talent?

Boyle is generating more offensive chances than Brassard is...

 

[slipknottin]

People like to discount things based on sample size, and I understand the argument. But it's important to remember that the playoffs are a small sample size. At the very most, a team will play 28 games. .

Which is exactly why while everyone else was talking about how great Brassard was, and how that production in the playoffs would translate to a 60+ point guy, I was talking about how taking a tiny sample size and extending that over a larger period of time was a terrible idea.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Boyle is generating more offensive chances than Brassard is...

Well Brassard is more of a playmaker, Boyle relies on his linemates less. Either way, Brassard has way more offensive upside than Boyle.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

The problem is comparing guys who did to guys who could.

I will always have an issue doing that.

Like I said earlier in this thread.

Look at that 11 team 16 games in. Their defense was

Staal Girardi
McDonagh Sauer
Stralman MDZ

MDZ was tearing it up, Staal was healthy, Sauer was playing extremely well.

Forward halfway through the season, Staal is concussed, Sauer's career is over, MDZ slows down.

Lots can change quickly.

You cant reasonably compare a team at the end of a long season + playoffs with a team less than 20 games in.

I don't think Stralman played on that team that early. I think he came in when we had an injury to one of our guys (Girardi?) against the Devils in the middle of the season and became a mainstay. I don't think that defense ever played together, unless he had a cup of coffee with the Rangers early.

 

[smoneil]

I don't think Stralman played on that team that early. I think he came in when we had an injury to one of our guys (Girardi?) against the Devils in the middle of the season and became a mainstay. I don't think that defense ever played together, unless he had a cup of coffee with the Rangers early.

You're right. Staal didn't play until January in 2011/12. Strals pretty much became a regular when Sauer got hurt. That team only played one game with both Sauer and Stralman in the lineup.

It was this at the beginning of the season:

McD-G
MDZ-Sauer
Eminger-Woywitka-Strals

By January, it was:

McD-G
Staal-MDZ
Eminger-Stralman

 

[slipknottin]

You're right. Staal didn't play until January in 2011/12. Strals pretty much became a regular when Sauer got hurt. That team only played one game with both Sauer and Stralman in the lineup.

It was this at the beginning of the season:

McD-G
MDZ-Sauer
Eminger-Woywitka-Strals

By January, it was:

McD-G
Staal-MDZ
Eminger-Stralman

Yea, I was thinking he got hurt in the 11-12 season, but he actually got hurt in the 10-11 season. My mistake.

But either way, it wasent as though the team was planning on a guy like Bickel playing a ton, it was that they had a lot of devastating long lasting injuries on defense.

 

[Fataldogg]

Dawes in the top 6 kind of hurts that team's depth. Dubi and especially Avery is not that very good for a top 6. Callahan wasn't the current Callahan by a long shot. Richards IMO is better than Gomez. Also that 4th line is terrible. I won't mention the D because you only said offense. I'm actually surprised that the D was as good as it was, actually surprised that the lineup was as good as it was.

Gomez in 07-08 had 70 points. Something Richards hasn't done with us yet. He was actually a solid forward for us in that first season.

I don't think this current team is close to being the deepest team we've had. Especially if you take Nash out of the line up (which for all intensive purposes, he hasn't been a legitimate part of the team this year).

Stepan is a border line first line forward, solid second line center. Richards is playing like a first line center, but we don't know how long that will continue. Callahan is a solid first line player for what he provides (complete game), but on a lot of teams would be a second line forward.

Than you go down on the depth chart to players like Brassard. He's a border line 2nd line forward (talented enough to be a 2nd line forward but doesn't produce like one), and would be a 3rd line forward on most "deep" teams in the league.

Despite the production recently from Zucarello, you can't say he is anything more than a 3rd line forward unless he continues this pace. Hagelin is a border line 2nd line forward. Kreider is too early to judge.

Pouliot, Boyle, Dorsett, Miller, Pyatt, Mashinter, are all 4th line caliber forwards, with one or two he might be 3rd line talent.

In 07-08 you were looking at a team with Jagr (legitimate 1st line forward), Gomez (1st line forward), Drury (legitimate 2nd line forward), Shanahan (2nd line forward), Straka (2nd line forward), Dubinsky (border line 2nd line forward at the time, more suitable for 3rd line), than players like Avery, Dawes, Bettes, etc, who were all good role players.

And our defense wasn't bad either. People will say Rozsival sucked, but he was a 40 point defense man for us who played responsible defense. Malik wasn't as putrid as people made him out to be. +/- was only an insignificant stat evaluating Malik. Marc Staal was solid out the gate. Girardi was still a solid defense man.

And I'm saying all this and I don't even know if 07-08 was our deepest team. I don't think the 13-14 team is, and frankly, I wouldn't understand an argument supporting it since with Nash out of the line up we might have one legitimate 1st line forward, two 2nd line forwards, some X factor forwards you can't evaluate yet, and the majority of the forwards being 3rd/4th line talent.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Gomez in 07-08 had 70 points. Something Richards hasn't done with us yet. He was actually a solid forward for us in that first season.

I don't think this current team is close to being the deepest team we've had. Especially if you take Nash out of the line up (which for all intensive purposes, he hasn't been a legitimate part of the team this year).

Stepan is a border line first line forward, solid second line center. Richards is playing like a first line center, but we don't know how long that will continue. Callahan is a solid first line player for what he provides (complete game), but on a lot of teams would be a second line forward.

Than you go down on the depth chart to players like Brassard. He's a border line 2nd line forward (talented enough to be a 2nd line forward but doesn't produce like one), and would be a 3rd line forward on most "deep" teams in the league.

Despite the production recently from Zucarello, you can't say he is anything more than a 3rd line forward unless he continues this pace. Hagelin is a border line 2nd line forward. Kreider is too early to judge.

Pouliot, Boyle, Dorsett, Miller, Pyatt, Mashinter, are all 4th line caliber forwards, with one or two he might be 3rd line talent.

In 07-08 you were looking at a team with Jagr (legitimate 1st line forward), Gomez (1st line forward), Drury (legitimate 2nd line forward), Shanahan (2nd line forward), Straka (2nd line forward), Dubinsky (border line 2nd line forward at the time, more suitable for 3rd line), than players like Avery, Dawes, Bettes, etc, who were all good role players.

And our defense wasn't bad either. People will say Rozsival sucked, but he was a 40 point defense man for us who played responsible defense. Malik wasn't as putrid as people made him out to be. +/- was only an insignificant stat evaluating Malik. Marc Staal was solid out the gate. Girardi was still a solid defense man.

And I'm saying all this and I don't even know if 07-08 was our deepest team. I don't think the 13-14 team is, and frankly, I wouldn't understand an argument supporting it since with Nash out of the line up we might have one legitimate 1st line forward, two 2nd line forwards, some X factor forwards you can't evaluate yet, and the majority of the forwards being 3rd/4th line talent.

It seems you're being optimistic with that 07-08 team and pessimistic with this team. I looked up the stats and the center depth was actually very good, probably better than ours now. I think Gomez and Richards are close to a wash, maybe slight advantage Gomez. Stepan I'll definitely take over Drury, easily. I was never a big fan of Drury. The guy had a limited skill set offensively. Now granted I think it's similar to Callahan's who I think is a solid top 6 forward. Drury was just not a great playmaker. I like my centers to be good playmakers, unless they're Stamkos. Dubi, I'd definitely take over the way Brassard is playing now. However, I think Brassard would get more than 40 points playing with Jagr. Though Dubi was more complete. We'll see how it works with Nash, if Brassard plays with him. I also like how you call Zucc a 3rd liner. On the line he's on now and the way he's playing he's playing like a 1st liner. Ditto Hagelin, who is a guy that can fit on every line. Furthermore, if those lines posted were correct you have 2 wingers in Avery and Dawes that don't belong in the top 6. We have no one like that in our top 6 right now. Guys like Hagelin, Callahan, and Zucc COULD be playing on a 3rd line on the Chicagos of the world, but are solid top 6ers. Dawes and Avery were not solid top 6ers.