Is there an argument for Kopitar to be the 3rd best player of his generation behind Crosby/Ovechkin?

[Rodgerwilco]

JMO but Doughty is arguably the best defenseman of his generation. It's not nothing.

Bizarre that you would list Dustin Brown before him.

Absolutely agreed. His level of consistency of remaining among the top tier defenders for basically his entire career has been absolutely impressive. Some players have eclipsed his peak at times, but his consistency is remarkable.

If you and I are actually agreeing on something I feel confident that it's correct, haha.

 

[Herby]

JMO but Doughty is arguably the best defenseman of his generation. It's not nothing.

Bizarre that you would list Dustin Brown before him.

He listed Dustin Brown because Dustin Brown is a forward who Kopitar played the vast majority of his time in the NHL with, and Drew Doughty is a two-way defenseman who had one 60-point season in his career. Doughty is great, but offensively he isn't exactly Bobby Orr.

Look, I’m not saying Kopitar is better than Malkin, not by any stretch, but people can't just blindly point at offensive production between the two while ignoring the vast differences in the situations the players were in, and also ignoring the defensive side of the rink.

What are the statistics like if the players had been drafted by the opposite teams? Do you really think Malkin is leading the league in scoring playing with Dustin Brown and Justin Williams, in a defensive-oriented system, with much less talent on special teams, while also being the focal point of the other team's defensive efforts for his entire career?

Malkin was the better player, but I don't think the gap is big enough to change the levels of success each had when it comes to Stanley Cups, assuming everything else was the same. The Kings would still have won Cups with a trio of Malkin, Doughty, and Quick, and the Penguins would still have won with Kopitar being a dominant two-way center behind Crosby.

 

[qcal1427]

There is a sustained excellence versus peak debate that rages when talking about an era's best players, or worthiness for the Hall of Fame for that matter. If you're singularly focused on pure peak, then Malkin and Karlsson have excellent cases. They shone brightest but not for that long. Kopitar's argument is that he's been an all-world two-way player (count his stellar defense as well as production, or this doesn't go anywhere) for a really long damn time. He's an accumulator of excellence, as opposed to laying down one hand and it's a royal flush, the rest of your night at the table be damned.

Karlsson and Malkin (and Kane who you didn't specifically mentioned but is generally the other guy in this conversation) all had much longer peaks/primes than you think here. There's no Tim Thomas in that group lol

 

[Regal]

Karlsson and Malkin (and Kane who you didn't specifically mentioned but is generally the other guy in this conversation) all had much longer peaks/primes than you think here. There's no Tim Thomas in that group lol

Yea, I’d say Malkin was better than Kopitar for more years than Kopitar’s been better than Malkin, so what is really gained by a slightly better aging curve? Health is the bigger factor but if you’re good enough to make the playoffs anyway, you want the better player.

 

[SML2]

Every generation has the top tier of guys who are just amazing. Below that there's about 50 guys who are hall of farmers, then the rest. There's no shame in being a Hall of Famer. If you think he's the third best player, then that's your opinion. You don't need people to agree with you.

 

[Nathaniel]

A 07-08 08-09 11-12 17-18 geno are heights kopitar has never sniffed. Easy malkin here

 

[Cool Hand Puke]

No

 

[dgibb10]

Am I missing something/somebody when it comes to malkins linemates?

 

[dgibb10]

He listed Dustin Brown because Dustin Brown is a forward who Kopitar played the vast majority of his time in the NHL with, and Drew Doughty is a two-way defenseman who had one 60-point season in his career. Doughty is great, but offensively he isn't exactly Bobby Orr.

Look, I’m not saying Kopitar is better than Malkin, not by any stretch, but people can't just blindly point at offensive production between the two while ignoring the vast differences in the situations the players were in, and also ignoring the defensive side of the rink.

What are the statistics like if the players had been drafted by the opposite teams? Do you really think Malkin is leading the league in scoring playing with Dustin Brown and Justin Williams, in a defensive-oriented system, with much less talent on special teams, while also being the focal point of the other team's defensive efforts for his entire career?

Malkin was the better player, but I don't think the gap is big enough to change the levels of success each had when it comes to Stanley Cups, assuming everything else was the same. The Kings would still have won Cups with a trio of Malkin, Doughty, and Quick, and the Penguins would still have won with Kopitar being a dominant two-way center behind Crosby.

I'm genuinely wondering who you are talking about when it comes to malkin's teammates/linemates that are supposedly so incredible?

Is the argument literally just crosby?

 

[ExarKun80]

f*** Dave Nonis for not picking him. Add insult to injury 11 years later you have Jim Benning picking Oli "the finish Lidstrom" Juolevi instead of Chucky. We most likely win a cup with Kopitar on the team.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

A 07-08 08-09 11-12 17-18 geno are heights kopitar has never sniffed. Easy malkin here

Kopitar was better than Malkin in 2017-2018.

 

[Crazy8oooo]

Nope, definitely not third.

 

[Ghetty Green]

Neither have I, but that's not what I said. The gap between Ovechkin/Crosby/Malkin and #4 is greater than the gaps between Kane, Kopitar, and Giroux for #4. I'd likely have Kane at #4.

Kopitar vs. Giroux for #5 is a much more interesting comparison. While Kopitar was a much better defensive player, Giroux was no slouch and was certainly better defensively than any player from 1-4. I still think Kopitar probably takes #5, though.

Giroux is a couple notches below Kopi.

 

[Ghetty Green]

Absolutely correct. You are a homer for taking Kopitar over either of Malkin or Kane for any reason.

Thank you for your unbiased opinion Penguin

 

[Ghetty Green]

Bergeron played with much better linemates his whole career, on much better teams, on an O6 team in the eastern time zone.

He was a bit better defensively, but was worse offensively. Swap these 2 players situations and the result would be clear.

Don't forget Bergeron benefitting from the Team Canada affiliation. Kopitar was a Slovenian playing at 1030pm in LA

 

[Ghetty Green]

And I am sure that had nothing to do with the fact that Malkin played for Russia, Kane played for USA and Kopitar played for Slovenia.

Problem with this argument is that Malkin & Kane played for world titles, including a lot more tourney games for Russia and USA whereas Kopitar was only able to drag the vastly less talented Slovenia national team into a real tournament once.

Kopitar single handedly dragging Slovenia to the Olympics is more impressive than kane and Geno stat padding on stacked teams in International competition.

 

[Offtheboard412]

Malkin played his whole career with Sidney Crosby. Not necessarily always on the same line, but the same PP and occasionally on the same line. Name any player that Kopitar played with that even came close to Crosby. Would Malkin have turned Dustin Brown into a star player on the Kings?

Malkin won an Art Ross and Conn Smythe with Ruslan Fedotenko, Petr Sykora and Max Talbot as his most common linemates that year. He turned James Neal into one of the premier goal scorers in the league while running away with the Hart and Art Ross in a season Crosby only played 22 games. The linemates argument isn't the angle to take if you're trying to place Kopitar above Malkin.

 

[Offtheboard412]

Malkin was the better player, but I don't think the gap is big enough to change the levels of success each had when it comes to Stanley Cups, assuming everything else was the same. The Kings would still have won Cups with a trio of Malkin, Doughty, and Quick, and the Penguins would still have won with Kopitar being a dominant two-way center behind Crosby.

I have a hard time seeing the Pens wining the cup in 09 if you swap Malkin and Kopitar. That was an all time level carry job by Crosby and Malkin. 2016 and 2017, sure I can see an argument for it as those were much deeper and more balanced squads. In 2009 there was such a a large gap between Crosby and Malkin's production and their third best player, anything short of swapping Malkin for a McDavid/Ovechkin/Kucherov level player would leave them coming up empty that year. They don't get past Washington without Malkin going god mode in game 3.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

 

[wunderpanda]

nothing against kopitar, he is in the top 5 conversation with bergeron, stamkos, pkane, josi, shea weber.
erik karlsson is the only guy who might push malkin to 4th.

 

[Cats2TheCup]

In over 200 less games played, Malkin has about 80 more points than Kopitar. So no.

Using pts as a barometer against a selke player is cringe and cheap analysis.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

I'm genuinely wondering who you are talking about when it comes to malkin's teammates/linemates that are supposedly so incredible?

Is the argument literally just crosby?

Yes, and it’s a compelling argument.

Kopitar has been counted on to be LA’s best offensive AND defensive player his entire career.

I’m fine with Malkin being #3 because raw statistics do matter in these discussions and a large majority favor Malkin because of that. But switch these players and they likely wind up with similar career stats and all the same hardware.

 

[SharksFan1992]

Is Thornton really part of that generation? He went 1OA in 1997, which seems like at least half a generation before the lockout.

True, but they played the bulk of their careers at the same time.

 

[Penguin Suited Up]

Using pts as a barometer against a selke player is cringe and cheap analysis.

Not when it makes it very clear that there is an insurmountable gap based on offensive results.

Also, Selke trophy is awarded based on votes by writers. From that standpoint, you have to consider whose votes are contributing to the award, and also consider that there is so little consideration for objective, quantitative analysis that truly determines who the best defensive player is. Kopitar didn’t win the Selke for being the best defensive player. He won for subjectively being considered a very good defensive player who put up a good amount of points

 

[Production Line]

Yeah, but Kopitar is the only one of the 4 mentioned above to win the Messier award. That's surely got to count for something, no?

Nope - he was not even the best player on his team.