Is there an argument for Kopitar to be the 3rd best player of his generation behind Crosby/Ovechkin?

[Djp]

As we know, there is a considerable gap between Crosby/Ovechkin and the 3rd player of their generation, which is more commonly argued to be either Malkin or Kane. I feel like a name that often gets forgotten in these discussions is Kopitar.

Kopitar entered the league at the same time as Malkin in 2006-2007, one year before Kane. Here are some of his notable accomplishments.

- Led the Kings in scoring 15 times, which would be good for 3rd place all-time I believe behind only Gretzky (20) and Howe (17) for the number of times leading his team in scoring.
- Has 2 Playoff scoring titles, which is as many as Malkin and one more than Kane.
- Won 2 Selke trophies (Finished top 10, 12 times)
- Has accumulated 16 60+ pts seasons, good for top 10 all time behind only Howe, Gretzky, Ovechkin, Jagr, Francis, Crosby, Sakic, Messier and Dionne. He would probably be only trailing Gretzky, Howe, Ovechkin and Crosby if not for the shortened seasons (2013 lockout, COVID).
- Has built an impressive longevity resume and seems to be aging better than both Malkin and Kane.

His offensive peak might not be as good as Malkin's and Kane's, but he is worlds ahead on the defensive side of the ice, played on a defensive oriented system for most of his career and did not play with any other star teammate on offense (at least for most of his career). Is it enough to be considered the 3rd best player of the 2005 lockout generation ahead of Malkin and Kane? If not currently, can he eventually get there?

We are basically looking at day 2006-2015 decade

He's id not top 3 but he's up there

Crosby
OVIE
Malkin
Toes
KANE
KOPITAR
LeCav
Getzlaf
PARISE
Vanek
Others

 

[Penguin Suited Up]

Thank you for your unbiased opinion Penguin

It’s a widely accepted unbiased opinion.

 

[Penguin Suited Up]

He listed Dustin Brown because Dustin Brown is a forward who Kopitar played the vast majority of his time in the NHL with, and Drew Doughty is a two-way defenseman who had one 60-point season in his career. Doughty is great, but offensively he isn't exactly Bobby Orr.

Look, I’m not saying Kopitar is better than Malkin, not by any stretch, but people can't just blindly point at offensive production between the two while ignoring the vast differences in the situations the players were in, and also ignoring the defensive side of the rink.

What are the statistics like if the players had been drafted by the opposite teams? Do you really think Malkin is leading the league in scoring playing with Dustin Brown and Justin Williams, in a defensive-oriented system, with much less talent on special teams, while also being the focal point of the other team's defensive efforts for his entire career?

Malkin was the better player, but I don't think the gap is big enough to change the levels of success each had when it comes to Stanley Cups, assuming everything else was the same. The Kings would still have won Cups with a trio of Malkin, Doughty, and Quick, and the Penguins would still have won with Kopitar being a dominant two-way center behind Crosby.

Yes Malkin would have been leading the league in points playing with whoever. He didn’t have gold for linemates himself. In fact, it is well documented that some of Malkin’s best stretches of performances came while Crosby was injured. And on the other side of the coin, Kopitar played on a team that won two Cups at his peak. He wasn’t playing with nobodies. There’s a f***ing statue of Dustin Brown outside of their arena. I don’t see a statue of Sykora anywhere.

 

[Curufinwe]

In over 200 less games played, Malkin has about 80 more points than Kopitar. So no.

You're right, Malkin was very injury prone.

 

[Penguin Suited Up]

You're right, Malkin was very injury prone.

And still better than any Flyers player in the history of their garbage franchise.

 

[PainForShane]

Yes you can make the argument. At one point Gretzky said Kopi was the 3rd best player in the world, behind Crosby and... Toews?!?!?? I didn't think I'd be able to find the source but it came up in a quick google search, Gretz said this just prior to the 2014 finals (LA/NYR).

Is Anze Kopitar the third-best player in the NHL? Wayne Gretzky says so in pre-series interview with Ron MacLean

Wayne Gretzky told Hockey Night in Canada last night that he believes Anze Kopitar is the third best player in the NHL right now behind Sidney Crosby and Jonathan Toews. The Great One also believes the series could revolve around the big Slovenian. Heady praise, coming from the greatest player...

thehockeynews.com

***

I think the answer depends how much you value straight offense. As a neutral fan, while Kopi's offense wasn't elite, I feel he significantly tilted the ice when he was out there, never took a shift off, won a few cups with what I would consider a relatively weak offensive roster. And he's still playing at a high level (4 points last night at age 37 wtf). Just an incredible player.

***

To me, I feel like the argument for Kopitar is more of a, 'what doesn't he do?' Sort of the same argument for guys like Datysuk, Fedorov, Forsberg from the generation before. But, it hurts him that Bergeron is generally regarded as better defensively (and plays in the East so more visible), and it hurts him that his offense wasn't elite. Just looked this up -- aside from his one Hart finalist year, Kopi never had a point per game season. But, he won multiple cups I don't think any would or should feel sorry for him.

Anyway if I'm able to pick one player to build a team around, I'm picking him ahead of both Malkin and Kane. To me, he impacts the game in more areas, absolute steal to be drafted 11OA.

So yes, imo you can definitely make the argument.

 

[Khelandros]

But the question wasn't who had the most points in that window of time.

The question was who was the best players in that window, and there's no credible argument that Giroux is on the same level as Anze Kopitar.

Are you sure about that?

 

[Nadal On Clay]

I did a breakdown of all the seasons they've played and compared their performances going age by age and this is how it looks:

18 y/o

1: Kane (2008)

19 y/o

1: Kane (2009)
2: Kopitar (2007)

20 y/o

1: Kane (2010)
2: Malkin (2007)
3: Kopitar (2008)

21 y/o

1: Malkin (2008)
2: Kane (2011)
3: Kopitar (2009)

22 y/o

1: Malkin (2009)
2: Kopitar (2010)
3: Kane (2012)

23 y/o

1: Kopitar (2011)
2: Kane (2013)
3: Malkin (2010)

24 y/o

1: Kopitar (2012)
2: Kane (2014)
3: Malkin (2011)

25 y/o

1: Malkin (2012)
2: Kane (2015)
3: Kopitar (2013)

26 y/o

1: Kane (2016)
2: Kopitar (2014)
3: Malkin (2013)

27 y/o

1: Malkin (2014)
2: Kane (2017)
3: Kopitar (2015)

28 y/o

1: Kopitar (2016)
2: Malkin (2015)
3: Kane (2018)

29 y/o

1: Kane (2019)
2: Malkin (2016)
3: Kopitar (2017)

30 y/o

1: Kopitar (2018)
2: Malkin (2017)
3: Kane (2020)

31 y/o

1: Malkin (2018)
2: Kane (2021)
3: Kopitar (2019)

32 y/o

1: Kane (2022)
2: Kopitar (2020)
3: Malkin (2019)

33 y/o

1: Malkin (2020)
2: Kopitar (2021)
3: Kane (2023)

34 y/o

1: Kopitar (2022)
2: Kane (2024)
3: Malkin (2021)

35 y/o

1: Kopitar (2023)
2: Malkin (2022)
3: Kane (2025)

36 y/o

1: Kopitar (2024)
2: Malkin (2023)

37 y/o

1: Kopitar (2025)
2: Malkin (2024)

38 y/o

1: Malkin (2025)

So far,

Kane
1st: 6
2nd: 7
3rd: 5

Kopitar
1st: 8
2nd: 5
3rd: 6

Malkin
1st: 7
2nd: 7
3rd: 5

Kopitar vs Malkin: 11 vs 8
Kopitar vs Kane: 8 vs 10

Kopitar seems to have the advantage on Malkin on a season to season basis, but currently trails Kane (mostly due to Kane joining the NHL at an earlier age). It’s going to be difficult for Kane to have better 36 y/o and 37 y/o seasons than Kopitar, though, which would tie them at 10.

 

[Cats2TheCup]

Not when it makes it very clear that there is an insurmountable gap based on offensive results.

Also, Selke trophy is awarded based on votes by writers. From that standpoint, you have to consider whose votes are contributing to the award, and also consider that there is so little consideration for objective, quantitative analysis that truly determines who the best defensive player is. Kopitar didn’t win the Selke for being the best defensive player. He won for subjectively being considered a very good defensive player who put up a good amount of points

Using points as the sole determining factor to argue an offensive player is better than a selke player is lazy, disengenuous and cheap. Your word salad proves the mental gymnastics needed to get there.

 

[BobCole]

I don't want to get lost in a debate about where he officially ranks, but as a Pens fan living on the West Coast, I've thought for several years that Kopitar is the most underrated player in the world. He's an absolute workhorse, outstanding defensively (and that's a massive understatement) who CONTINUES to produce offensively well into the back 9 of his career. I love everything about the guy.

 

[FerrisRox]

Are you sure about that?

View attachment 1021609

Yeah, I'm quite sure, but boy, you certainly had be questioning it when you drop a quote from Sam Carchidi. So difficult to question the take of someone as respected and well known as he is.

 

[Penguin Suited Up]

Using points as the sole determining factor to argue an offensive player is better than a selke player is lazy, disengenuous and cheap. Your word salad proves the mental gymnastics needed to get there.

Using points per game when the gap is very large is the most important deciding factor. Using Selkes is lazy, disingenuous, and cheap. It’s a subjective award that isn’t even given to the best defensive player on any given year. It’s the sort of argument one uses when they want to create a grey space in which they can create an argument that doesn’t rely on facts and data. No amount of you trying to discredit my points changes the fact that Kopitar isn’t in the conversation for top 3 of his generation.

 

[Penguin Suited Up]

Are you sure about that?

View attachment 1021609

Yikes.

 

[SenzZen]

Too soon to tell, really.

There’s still time for Brian Lee to turn things around!

 

[hamzarocks]

I did a breakdown of all the seasons they've played and compared their performances going age by age and this is how it looks:

18 y/o

1: Kane (2008)

19 y/o

1: Kane (2009)
2: Kopitar (2007)

20 y/o

1: Kane (2010)
2: Malkin (2007)
3: Kopitar (2008)

21 y/o

1: Malkin (2008)
2: Kane (2011)
3: Kopitar (2009)

22 y/o

1: Malkin (2009)
2: Kopitar (2010)
3: Kane (2012)

23 y/o

1: Kopitar (2011)
2: Kane (2013)
3: Malkin (2010)

24 y/o

1: Kopitar (2012)
2: Kane (2014)
3: Malkin (2011)

25 y/o

1: Malkin (2012)
2: Kane (2015)
3: Kopitar (2013)

26 y/o

1: Kane (2016)
2: Kopitar (2014)
3: Malkin (2013)

27 y/o

1: Malkin (2014)
2: Kane (2017)
3: Kopitar (2015)

28 y/o

1: Kopitar (2016)
2: Malkin (2015)
3: Kane (2018)

29 y/o

1: Kane (2019)
2: Malkin (2016)
3: Kopitar (2017)

30 y/o

1: Kopitar (2018)
2: Malkin (2017)
3: Kane (2020)

31 y/o

1: Malkin (2018)
2: Kane (2021)
3: Kopitar (2019)

32 y/o

1: Kane (2022)
2: Kopitar (2020)
3: Malkin (2019)

33 y/o

1: Malkin (2020)
2: Kopitar (2021)
3: Kane (2023)

34 y/o

1: Kopitar (2022)
2: Kane (2024)
3: Malkin (2021)

35 y/o

1: Kopitar (2023)
2: Malkin (2022)
3: Kane (2025)

36 y/o

1: Kopitar (2024)
2: Malkin (2023)

37 y/o

1: Kopitar (2025)
2: Malkin (2024)

38 y/o

1: Malkin (2025)

So far,

Kane
1st: 6
2nd: 7
3rd: 5

Kopitar
1st: 8
2nd: 5
3rd: 6

Malkin
1st: 7
2nd: 7
3rd: 5

Kopitar vs Malkin: 11 vs 8
Kopitar vs Kane: 8 vs 10

Kopitar seems to have the advantage on Malkin on a season to season basis, but currently trails Kane (mostly due to Kane joining the NHL at an earlier age). It’s going to be difficult for Kane to have better 36 y/o and 37 y/o seasons than Kopitar, though, which would tie them at 10.

You are biased and are giving Kopitar top rankings in numerous years he doesnt deserve it

For example 2013 Kane was 6th in MVP voting, won a smythe (if your including playoffs) and was top 5/6 in pts. Somehow you have that behind Kopitars 2011 season where he wasnt near that level of player

Same with Kopitar for his 36 year old season not sure how that was better than Malkins 36 aged season

kopitar for his career is not even a career ppg player in either the reg season or playoffs.

All three of Kane, Malkin and Kopitar have won a lot of cups. Kane and Malkin were often in discussions for best player because there offense wasnt as limited as Kopitars

 

[McDonald19]

70 point players usually aren’t in the generational conversation.

He is a great two-way player though.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

I love Kopitar and am a big fan of his but there is absolutely zero argument for him over Datsyuk. Others too like Malkin but chose Datsyuk as a better 2 way comparable who was just better than Kopitar in every aspect of the game

 

[Midnight Judges]

He listed Dustin Brown because Dustin Brown is a forward who Kopitar played the vast majority of his time in the NHL with, and Drew Doughty is a two-way defenseman who had one 60-point season in his career. Doughty is great, but offensively he isn't exactly Bobby Orr.

Look, I’m not saying Kopitar is better than Malkin, not by any stretch, but people can't just blindly point at offensive production between the two while ignoring the vast differences in the situations the players were in, and also ignoring the defensive side of the rink.

Uh, that’s why Doughty is relevant. He contributes greatly to goal prevention - which is something Kopitar is greatly and rightly credited for.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Why are some of you trying to rewrite history in this thread? Kopitar was never a top 3 player in the league. Maybe a top 3 forward a couple of seasons?

Sid, OV, and Malkin made up a pretty indisputable big 3. After that Karlsson was always ranked above him as defenseman. Kane carved out a much better career and was consistently a top 5 forward.

Then there is a group of Datsyuk, Stamkos, Bergeron, Lundqvist, Quick, Doughty, Kane, Zetterberg, and Hedman that I would throw Kopitar into. You could argue him the best of that group if you want, but you could easily argue that he isn't.

 

[bobholly39]

I love Kopitar and am a big fan of his but there is absolutely zero argument for him over Datsyuk. Others too like Malkin but chose Datsyuk as a better 2 way comparable who was just better than Kopitar in every aspect of the game

There's definitely an argument for Kopitar over Datsyuk. At least that's a conversation worth having. #3 of his era is a non-starter because Malkin and Kane are definitely ahead - and that's before considering other forwards, defensemen or goalies.

As for Datsyuk vs Kopitar comparison:

Kopitar has better playoffs
Kopitar has 500+ regular season gap (and 350+ point gap)

I think we can give Datsyuk the edge for peak, but overall, I think it's close.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

You are biased and are giving Kopitar top rankings in numerous years he doesnt deserve it

For example 2013 Kane was 6th in MVP voting, won a smythe (if your including playoffs) and was top 5/6 in pts. Somehow you have that behind Kopitars 2011 season where he wasnt near that level of player

Same with Kopitar for his 36 year old season not sure how that was better than Malkins 36 aged season

kopitar for his career is not even a career ppg player in either the reg season or playoffs.

All three of Kane, Malkin and Kopitar have won a lot of cups. Kane and Malkin were often in discussions for best player because there offense wasnt as limited as Kopitars

Some of them are definitely arguable. I prefer the PPG defensive stalwart in 2011 Kopitar over the scoring winger, who played in possibly one of the best teams of the century in the 2013 Hawks. Kane also won one of the weakest Conn-Smythe of the century for forwards (Both Kopitar 2012 and 2014 runs were better). 2013 was also a shortened season, so I guess I am putting less value on it, deservedly so or not.

As for age 36, I don’t know how you can realistically push for Malkin as they offered similar offensive production (13 pts difference overall and 3 pts difference at ES) while Kopitar was a top 5 two-way player in the league.

 

[teravaineSAROS]

If I'm not mistaken Bergeron has usually had better linemates (as far as offense goes) than Kopitar right?

 

[1specter]

Kopitar is an awesome player and leader, his longevity is impressive, he has some amazing accomplishments and in general seems like a good dude who goes about his business quietly, a consummate and respected professional. Let's appreciate him for what he is, instead of tarnishing his name undeservedly because of hyperbolic takes.

 

[1specter]

If I'm not mistaken Bergeron has usually had better linemates (as far as offense goes) than Kopitar right?

Yes, Kopi never had anyone close to a Marchand or Pastrnak calibre linemate.

 

[hamzarocks]

Some of them are definitely arguable. I prefer the PPG defensive stalwart in 2011 Kopitar over the scoring winger, who played in possibly one of the best teams of the century in the 2013 Hawks. Kane also won one of the weakest Conn-Smythe of the century for forwards (Both Kopitar 2012 and 2014 runs were better). 2013 was also a shortened season, so I guess I am putting less value on it, deservedly so or not.

As for age 36, I don’t know how you can realistically push for Malkin as they offered similar offensive production (13 pts difference) while Kopitar was a top 5 two-way player in the league.

Malkin in his age 36 season was playing with weaker linemates than Kopitar

Kopitar was the 3rd best forward offensively on the Kings that year. His offense was tied to superior offensive players in Kempe and fiala (mostly PP)

Malkin was still a strong 1C in his age 2022-2023 season and I'd take him ahead of Kopitar in 2023-2024. He got weaker linemates due to Pens lack of depth and Crosby being better 1C then him in 2023 still (93 pt year for Crosby with Guentzel and Rakell mostly)

Kopitar 2023-2024 and 2024-2025 Id take over Malkin though for the same years as Malkin is too broken and not able to be a top end player anymore.

Kane also in 2013 lockout or not, was the best player on the hawks from start to finish. His smythe may be weak sure, but his year as a whole was elite. That year was better than any Kopitar has had in his career besides 2018 and is one of Kanes top 5 seasons (2010, 2013, 2015, 2016 and 2019).

You can't be 20+ pt worse than a player per 82 games, have less high-end years, worse playoff performances and less cups and have only a bit better longevity than a player and pretend that player is ahead of the comparable

Malkin + Kane both peaked much higher, had 4-5 prime years Kopitar never touched, were better playoff players and are still 80-90%% as good as Kopitar is at 36/37