Is there a narrative that the Capitals are sacrificing everything to get Ovechkin the Goal Record? Is there a double standard with regards to Crosby?

[Hockey4Lyfe]

Truthfully, the Caps and Penguins situation is drastically different looking at it today.

The Caps were nowhere near as aggressive as the Penguins were when it came to giving up the future for the present/winning.

Hell the Blackhawks didn't even go as deep into the well as the Penguins and look what happened to them.

I guess I am failing to see what the Penguins could have actually done to right the ship here this quickly.

Yes, hindsight, never make the Karlsson trade. (easy as hell to sit here and make that claim now)

Don't sign Jarry and Graves (both dollar amounts okay but term way too long, but other teams survive these contracts)

Have some sort of magical ball to stop trading first rounders post 2020. (this is probably the easiest one to sit back and deduce)

I mean outside of the above, they weren't lucky like the Capitals in the sense that aging players who were on the downside of their careers with very healthy contracts getting injured to become much younger.

They had nowhere near the draft picks to find talented young players. Lets be honest, to stop what is going on with the Penguins team as they all age would have taken a f***ing miracle to begin with. That miracle being hitting on almost every trade/draft pick.

Its honestly just an unintelligent idea to sit and try to say these teams are in the same position. There are very massive differences in how things played out.

Give the Penghins a few years to also shed deadweight and large amounts of money while stacking young talent and we can compare then.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

Here is the scenario I want to put out there.…

Oshie and Backstrom never get injured and the Capitals have to carry them this year.

Outside of the better and more ready prospect pool (as stated previously they had much more ammo with draft picks)…

Is the Capitals team really that much different than the Penguins this year?

 

[Neil Racki]

Basically the question is in the title.

Do you believe (a) there is a narrative that Washington has sacrificed all team building for the sake of Ovechkin's legacy/pursuit of goal scoring record, (b) that this narrative has any merit, (c) that Pittsburgh has somehow escaped the same level of scrutiny with regards to the late stages of Crosby's career, (d) if there is a double standard, that this is somewhat warranted?

a) They have sacrificed some but not all ... Tom Wilson, Dylan Strome, maybe JC and his contract could be moved

b) some merit. Our prior GMBM said last year its a balance of trying to get younger while staying competitive

c) Pittsburgh sucks ... f***ing joke franchise right now

d) Each team has its own standard .. .this is subjective, I personally dont care about the penguins or what they do or dont do

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

I've been saying this for years. If the Caps really want to speed up the process for Ovechkin becoming the greatest goal scorer in NHL history. Then they should trade their picks for a pure playmaking center to help Ovy get there.

 

[OurlordAndSaviorKuch]

Why not, I don't see the issues in doing so. It isn't like you have much else to do during your shitty rebuild years? But maybe hope you strike gold and have a Cinderella run?

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Panthers, Lightning, Senators, Sabres, Bruins, Devils, Rangers, Leafs, Hurricanes, Islanders and Blue Jackets. Penguins are arguable depending on our opinion of Karlsson currently. So potentially 80% of the conference.

I think they know they have a middle of the pack team and are treading water for now. They know its a long shot to make the playoffs so why waste resources.


So what is the goal this year? Wild card at best? Likely miss and have a middle of the pack pick again. If it happens, no one is complaining, but lets not pretend that management went ham to make a real run at the Cup.

I disagree with all of this. They’re not treading for water at all, and I think they can push to win a round or two in the playoffs. This is a well coached team and a balanced roster.

Time will tell, but I see a ton of reasons to be optimistic.

 

[Nogatco Rd]

I'll give you the Penguins as the one "successful" tear-it-down rebuild story and that rebuild was literally a week away from costing the city the franchise

To be fair, this is largely a myth.

The ownership group who bought the Pens in 1991 was cash poor and signed away almost all of the plum revenue streams (concessions, parking, ad revenue, etc) in order to finance the purchase. Player salaries skyrocketed in the 90’s and they had their best player playing on a deferred contract which just kicked the can further down the road.

The whole operation was unsustainable from the beginning, and when that deferred money came due the house of cards collapsed.

The rebuild/tank came after the team was sold.. they were still making deep playoff runs when the team declared bankruptcy.

TLDR: there were a number of poor business decisions by ownership that led to the speculation of relocation. Yinzers bailing on the team once they started sucking is revisionist history.

 

[HTFN]

Here is the scenario I want to put out there.…

Oshie and Backstrom never get injured and the Capitals have to carry them this year.

Outside of the better and more ready prospect pool (as stated previously they had much more ammo with draft picks)…

Is the Capitals team really that much different than the Penguins this year?

If players like Backstrom aren't injured the team is still better with him than without him. A healthy but old Backstrom could still give the team something similar to what fans around the league expect from a guy like Dubois (and they wouldn't have needed to get him which is even better for their cap).

It seems like what you want is for those players to still be injured/bad to the point of not really being serviceable but also not replaced in any capacity... and for that you just have to look at last year. Both made comeback efforts and played through injury and while the team was collectively not great, last year's Capitals were arguably already better than the Penguins are right now.

So yes, I would say this version is better by a decent amount and on a fantastically different trajectory given the supporting cast.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

If players like Backstrom aren't injured the team is still better with him than without him. A healthy but old Backstrom could still give the team something similar to what fans around the league expect from a guy like Dubois (and they wouldn't have needed to get him which is even better for their cap).

It seems like what you want is for those players to still be injured/bad to the point of not really being serviceable but also not replaced in any capacity... and for that you just have to look at last year when both made comeback efforts and despite being a tough team to watch, the Capitals were arguably already better than the Penguins are right now.

So yes, I would say this version is better by a decent amount and on a fantastically different trajectory given the supporting cast.

That's straight lunacy you believe the Caps were better by a “decent” amount last year.

Also ridiculous to think that Backstrom would be better than PLD is today. Dude was trending awful for a guy making so much on top of not being healthy.

You can't bring up PLD like it was a one for one trade off between the two. They took on his awful deal to get out of the Kuemper deal as well.

Face it, with Backstrom and Oshie, the Capitals are right there with the Pens as an old and slow team still. But with better younger players. People are acting like the Caps did some sort of miracle doing voodoo on two aging players falling off a cliff and saving $15 million in the process.

 

[Fataldogg]

I'm confused. The Capitals are 6-2 and just dominated the Rangers.

It seems to me they care about winning.

 

[Nogatco Rd]

Here is the scenario I want to put out there.…

Oshie and Backstrom never get injured and the Capitals have to carry them this year.

You keep saying the caps are lucky because those guys got hurt.

I’d rather have a healthy Oshie on the last year of his contract than Mangiapane, and I think most would prefer a final year with a healthy Backstrom over PLD & his 8 yr contract.

It’s not like their games are predicated on speed, they are both cerebral, skilled players who were still effective until hobbled by injuries over the last few years.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

You keep saying the caps are lucky because those guys got hurt.

I’d rather have a healthy Oshie on the last year of his contract than Mangiapane, and I think most would prefer a final year with a healthy Backstrom over PLD & his 8 yr contract.

It’s not like their games are predicated on speed, they are both cerebral, skilled players who were still effective until hobbled by injuries over the last few years.

This is more so an argument towards people saying “the Capitals were smart and got younger this year”.

Well they were gifted the money and absence of aging players having injuries.

I also wouldn't be so sure if they would actually be better than this year as well. They have looked better this year than basically any point they did last year.

 

[HTFN]

That's straight lunacy you believe the Caps were better by a “decent” amount last year.

Also ridiculous to think that Backstrom would be better than PLD is today. Dude was trending awful for a guy making so much on top of not being healthy.

You can't bring up PLD like it was a one for one trade off between the two. They took on his awful deal to get out of the Kuemper deal as well.

Face it, with Backstrom and Oshie, the Capitals are right there with the Pens as an old and slow team still. But with better younger players. People are acting like the Caps did some sort of miracle doing voodoo on two aging players falling off a cliff and saving $15 million in the process.

Okay, read it again with the brain engaged.

Your scenario suggests Backstrom avoids injury. He'd already had surgery but let's take that to mean a much better recovery... either way, how he was trending no longer applies since you've suggested he be healthy enough to stay off LTIR. Healthy. Not playing on one leg and refusing to get off the ice, but actually healthy? The Capitals likely don't trade for Dubois if they have Strome and Backstrom, and fans suggest that Dubois is a sub-par top 6 center anyway, so... I have no doubts that a truly healthy Nick Backstrom could do a lot of whatever they get from Dubois this year.

Your dream scenario is begging for a butterfly effect that you like and ignoring other ones that don't appeal to you and your point. The reality of the situation is that it isn't lucky to have the injuries and it's not luck to plan around the freed up cap space either, good teams make good plans and make full use of their assets. You make it sound like some surprise lucky break instead of something the whole world has seen coming for at least the last year, if not two. If anything they were unlucky that both insisted on trying to play last year, as it could have accelerated what they're doing now.

Now, based on how the teams are playing and not just how you feel about the names on the roster, can you tell me how the Penguins are substantially better than last year's Capitals?

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

Okay, read it again with the brain engaged.

Your scenario suggests Backstrom avoids injury. He'd already had surgery but let's take that to mean a much better recovery... either way, how he was trending no longer applies since you've suggested he be healthy enough to stay off LTIR. Healthy. Not playing on one leg and refusing to get off the ice, but actually healthy? The Capitals likely don't trade for Dubois if they have Strome and Backstrom, and fans suggest that Dubois is a sub-par top 6 center anyway, so... I have no doubts that a truly healthy Nick Backstrom could do a lot of whatever they get from Dubois this year.

Your dream scenario is begging for a butterfly effect that you like and ignoring other ones that don't appeal to you and your point. The reality of the situation is that it isn't lucky to have the injuries and it's not luck to plan around the freed up cap space either, good teams make good plans and make full use of their assets. You make it sound like some surprise lucky break instead of something the whole world has seen coming for at least the last year, if not two. If anything they were unlucky that both insisted on trying to play last year, as it could have accelerated what they're doing now.

Now, based on how the teams are playing and not just how you feel about the names on the roster, can you tell me how the Penguins are substantially better than last year's Capitals?

That Penguins weren’t better than last years Capitals. I have no clue where you got that because I never said it.

Face it, the Capitals this year with Backstrom and Oshie are just as old and slow as the Penguins are. Probably not the same record but a below average team.

 

[HTFN]

That Penguins weren’t better than last years Capitals. I have no clue where you got that because I never said it.

Face it, the Capitals this year with Backstrom and Oshie are just as old and slow as the Penguins are. Probably not the same record but a below average team.

engage the brain my guy, really try this time: I'm the one who said that this year's Penguins team isn't even as good as last year's Capitals. This is as close as we will ever come in reality to the scenario you presented, since the Caps had to build around both contracts. If you think the Penguins will surge from one of the worst teams in the East to wildcard spot, well, I disagree but can't fault you for hoping.

"What if the Capitals didn't make good moves or spend any money so they could accommodate old players who can't physically skate anymore, wouldn't that make them worse?" holds about as much weight as me saying "what if Evgeni Malkin lost both his legs and they just let him keep playing every night, would the Penguins have two of the worst lines in the league?". Factually accurate, not relevant or reasonable in the slightest.

Again, the Capitals played with Backstrom and Oshie last year. They did all the stuff you asked about... last year. The team was rough with them, better without them, and still found a way into the playoffs without them because the team was built well to allow for this. They didn't waste picks, they didn't get delusional and trade for somebody who f***ed up their cap situation, they let both players give it everything and then make decisions about their futures knowing the season would be tough and earmarking their salaries for later.

So yes, if you ignore all the prospects and picks and then also imagine that the Caps made no personnel moves this year because Backstrom and Oshie handcuffed them even though all that makes no sense, I would agree that the Penguins and Capitals have the same trajectory. They don't at all, but if you imagine all those things I guess they could.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

engage the brain my guy, really try this time: I'm the one who said that this year's Penguins team isn't even as good as last year's Capitals. This is as close as we will ever come in reality to the scenario you presented, since the Caps had to build around both contracts. If you think the Penguins will surge from one of the worst teams in the East to wildcard spot, well, I disagree but can't fault you for hoping.

"What if the Capitals didn't make good moves or spend any money so they could accommodate old players who can't physically skate anymore, wouldn't that make them worse?" holds about as much weight as me saying "what if Evgeni Malkin lost both his legs and they just let him keep playing every night, would the Penguins have two of the worst lines in the league?". Factually accurate, not relevant or reasonable in the slightest.

Again, the Capitals played with Backstrom and Oshie last year. They did all the stuff you asked about... last year. The team was rough with them, better without them, and still found a way into the playoffs without them because the team was built well to allow for this. They didn't waste picks, they didn't get delusional and trade for somebody who f***ed up their cap situation, they let both players give it everything and then make decisions about their futures knowing the season would be tough and earmarking their salaries for later.

So yes, if you ignore all the prospects and picks and then also imagine that the Caps made no personnel moves this year because Backstrom and Oshie handcuffed them even though all that makes no sense, I would agree that the Penguins and Capitals have the same trajectory. They don't at all, but if you imagine all those things I guess they could.

Man I am not reading all that. Good for you or sorry that happened to you.

 

[HTFN]

Man I am not reading all that. Good for you or sorry that happened to you.

Got it. Can't and won't read, even when it comes to basic bolded text asking you to follow up on a single point of contention.

Hope your hypothetical fantasy can provide enough warm feelings for what looks like a real rough season. Everybody else is just lucky, I guess.

 

[ijuka]

It's pretty obvious that to Caps, Ovechkin getting the record is more important than the team's success.

 

[SkinsFan09]

Man I am not reading all that. Good for you or sorry that happened to you.

This was a mediocre use of that meme.

 

[Nogatco Rd]

This is more so an argument towards people saying “the Capitals were smart and got younger this year”.

Well they were gifted the money and absence of aging players having injuries.

Since 2018 the Caps have done a better job than the Penguins at:

1. drafting
2. trading
3. signing free agents
4. retaining talent

Seems like rather than acknowledging the above, you’re fixated on refusing to give the Caps any credit on the grounds that they were “gifted” a quick retool because two 37 year olds went on LTIR in the final year of their contracts.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

Since 2018 the Caps have done a better job than the Penguins at:

1. drafting
2. trading
3. signing free agents
4. retaining talent

Seems like rather than acknowledging the above, you’re fixated on refusing to give the Caps any credit on the grounds that they were “gifted” a quick retool because two 37 year olds went on LTIR in the final year of their contracts.

Like I said, this isn't a Penguins vs Capitals discussion. Its easier to get younger and play better when two aging players on the downsides of their careers get injured. (among a host of other things)

I don't care about the above because it has nothing to do with what I am saying. No one is arguing that the Capitals are in a better state than the Penguins right now. It is pretty evident that they are.

You guys take your somewhat bright future and we will take the Stanley Cups and we can all move on.

Deal? I don't need notifications from the entire Capitals fan base.

 

[Nogatco Rd]

It's pretty obvious that to Caps, Ovechkin getting the record is more important than the team's success.

Should’ve picked a night ovi wasnt dishing out assists to drop this take

 

[HTFN]

Like I said, this isn't a Penguins vs Capitals discussion. Its easier to get younger and play better when two aging players on the downsides of their careers get injured. (among a host of other things)

I don't care about the above because it has nothing to do with what I am saying. No one is arguing that the Capitals are in a better state than the Penguins right now. It is pretty evident that they are.

You guys take your somewhat bright future and we will take the Stanley Cups and we can all move on.

Deal? I don't need notifications from the entire Capitals fan base.

You literally posed an open question to the thread on this very page, you can't be mad when people respond to it in ways that don't fit what you thought was going to happen and act like everyone's ganged up on you for no reason. The whole prompt was a hypothetical adding to a Caps v. Pens discussion.

It was a bad point, move on.

It's pretty obvious that to Caps, Ovechkin getting the record is more important than the team's success.

Curious, if it's obvious what stands out to you the most?

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

You literally posed an open question to the thread on this very page, you can't be mad when people respond to it in ways that don't fit what you thought was going to happen and act like everyone's ganged up on you for no reason.

It was a bad point, move on.


Curious, if it's obvious what stands out to you the most?

Its a valid point but because you got your panties in a bunch and don't agree with it doesn't making it invalid.

To each their own.

 

[HTFN]

Its a valid point but because you got your panties in a bunch and don't agree with it doesn't making it invalid.

To each their own.

Your valid point was "what if the Caps did completely different things and played their old injured players (but not injured because healthy, also not better because old?)" and "look how lucky it was all this happened".

I replied, you bailed, f*** out of here until you're ready to read it. You can't act like you're here to discuss valid points when you won't read replies.