Is There a Case For Kucherov > Ovechkin?

[ezcreepin]

I'm almost convinced that if guys like McDavid, Draisaitl, Matthews, Jagr, or Selanne had the same obsession as Ovechkin, they could have had careers with 1,000 regular-season goals. And I'm not even talking about those who played in the '80s.

The playoffs count more than the regular season, and not just in the NBA. The NFL and MLB are the same thing. Plus, your argument is flawed because Kucherov is very close to Ovechkin's goal tally with a good part of his career ahead of him, even though that's not even his role on the ice.

Tampa Bay scores more goals with Kucherov than Washington with Ovechkin. It doesn't matter who scores, the important thing is to help win. And Kucherov helps his team more. In any case, Tampa has had more success with Kucherov than Washington with Ovechkin, by far. So there's no debate.

With the Ovimaniacs, it's always the same thing: masturbating over a regular-season goal record that didn't do much for Washington and that doesn't do much for hockey. It's just a nice anecdote.

The thread is: Is Kucherov better than Ovechkin, not is Tampa Bay better than Washington or did Kucherov help his team win more cups than Ovie or did Tampa play more playoff games because of Kucherov vs Ovie and the Caps, etc etc etc. It is a player vs player comparison, and sure you can look to their influence, but we're talking about their careers, but I'll bite:

Ovechkin's % contribution to the team since he entered the league (goals, pts compared to goals scored by team)
Goals - 18.6%
Total offense - 33.6%

Kucherov % contribution
Goals - 11.4%
Total offense - 31.8%

Ok ok, SO WHAT that Ovechkin has contributed more to the team offense in the regular season. Kucherov is SURELY better in the playoffs:
Ovechkin playoff % contribution
Goals - 18.2%
Total offense - 35.7%

Kucherov playoff % contribution
Goals - 12.2%
Total offense - 38.4%

OK, you got me, Kucherov just BARELY beat out Ovechkin in % of offense contributed in the playoffs, so I guess you got me there!

Literally at least check your work before you make a comment like that. I don't care about who was on the ice when a goal was scored because it's inconsequential to them contributing to the offense, and even though Ovechkin is 11 playoff points away from tying Kucherov in contribution, Ovechkin was, has been, and still is a better player to their team than Kucherov has been. The fact is, they are both almost 99% offensive players who aren't contributing significantly to the defensive game. And if you're going to argue that, I'm going to point to Kucherov's staggering TOTAL short handed ice time of 13:37 in 794 games. Ovechkin's stats aren't available for that metric, but his average over his career is 0:08 SH TOI/Game vs Kucherov's 0:01 SH TOI/Game, which I think says a lot about him defensively and also might say something about him offensively too, who knows. If they were apt defensive players, they'd play some amount of time on the pk.

 

[Caps8112]

GMs' mission is to help their team win. Not to steer the game toward a record.

McDavid, Draisaitl, and Matthews have already proven they can rack up 50-plus goal seasons if they want to make it a goal.

Only these guys are capable of more than Ovechkin.

Ovechkin focused on this record because he can't make his teammates play and be a playmaker.

Whereas McDavid, Draisaitl, and Matthews are capable of both.

Jagr didn't care about beating Gretzky. It's a nice record, but it's anecdotal. Not a career goal.

tell you that, did he

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

The thread is: Is Kucherov better than Ovechkin, not is Tampa Bay better than Washington or did Kucherov help his team win more cups than Ovie or did Tampa play more playoff games because of Kucherov vs Ovie and the Caps, etc etc etc. It is a player vs player comparison, and sure you can look to their influence, but we're talking about their careers, but I'll bite:

Ovechkin's % contribution to the team since he entered the league (goals, pts compared to goals scored by team)
Goals - 18.6%
Total offense - 33.6%

Kucherov % contribution
Goals - 11.4%
Total offense - 31.8%

Ok ok, SO WHAT that Ovechkin has contributed more to the team offense in the regular season. Kucherov is SURELY better in the playoffs:
Ovechkin playoff % contribution
Goals - 18.2%
Total offense - 35.7%

Kucherov playoff % contribution
Goals - 12.2%
Total offense - 38.4%

OK, you got me, Kucherov just BARELY beat out Ovechkin in % of offense contributed in the playoffs, so I guess you got me there!

Literally at least check your work before you make a comment like that. I don't care about who was on the ice when a goal was scored because it's inconsequential to them contributing to the offense, and even though Ovechkin is 11 playoff points away from tying Kucherov in contribution, Ovechkin was, has been, and still is a better player to their team than Kucherov has been. The fact is, they are both almost 99% offensive players who aren't contributing significantly to the defensive game. And if you're going to argue that, I'm going to point to Kucherov's staggering TOTAL short handed ice time of 13:37 in 794 games. Ovechkin's stats aren't available for that metric, but his average over his career is 0:08 SH TOI/Game vs Kucherov's 0:01 SH TOI/Game, which I think says a lot about him defensively and also might say something about him offensively too, who knows. If they were apt defensive players, they'd play some amount of time on the pk.

So Kucherov is better than Ovechkin in my opinion.

Your statistics contradict your theory, too.

You'll have a hard time convincing me that Ovechkin is better than Kucherov in the playoffs. Without 2018, we'd be seen as the biggest loser in history.

 

[qcal1427]

The proof is that Matthews has more goals than Ovechkin did at his age while shooting much less. He is just a more complete player and less shot-oriented.
What would hockey be like if every player started with the mentality of scoring more goals than their teammates: nothing.
It's always the same with the Ovimaniacs: the cult of individualism.

I prefer team players.

Ovechkin's 20 years have only yielded one title for his sole appearance in the final top 4.

Not crazy.

By your own logic I'd assume you'd rather take Ovi's 112 point max, 4 >100 point seasons, and second round ceiling over Matthews' 107 max, 2 seasons >100, and first round ceiling ...

Ovi's 20 years have yielded "only" one of the longest periods of sustained success in modern NHL history and have transformed DC into a hockey market.

 

[qcal1427]

tell you that, did he

With Ovi it always comes down to "if you ignore his best seasons" or "if you accept this completely made up premise" or "if this thing that didn't happen did"

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

By your own logic I'd assume you'd rather take Ovi's 112 point max, 4 >100 point seasons, and second round ceiling over Matthews' 107 max, 2 seasons >100, and first round ceiling ...

Ovi's 20 years have yielded "only" one of the longest periods of sustained success in modern NHL history and have transformed DC into a hockey market.

In my opinion, it's very limiting to limit oneself to the number of points, and even more so to the number of goals, when evaluating a player.If you ask me who I prefer between Ovechkin and Matthews, I'd take Matthews.Among the forwards born in the 90s, I have five guys above Ovechkin (McDavid, McKinnon, Kucherov, Draisaitl, Matthews).

The 80s generation is a weak generation. Crosby is easily number 1. Then there's the debate between Ovechkin, Malkin, and Kane.

 

[Devilsfan118]

We're 22 pages in so I'm assuming someone's already brought up the fact that Kuch plays like a spoiled child when he doesn't get his way. Dirty rat type player.

Ovie AINEC

 

[authentic]

And if you look at Kucherov outside 2022-25 Corey Perry or Taylor Hall are better players ...

 

[Herregud]

In my opinion, it's very limiting to limit oneself to the number of points, and even more so to the number of goals, when evaluating a player.If you ask me who I prefer between Ovechkin and Matthews, I'd take Matthews.Among the forwards born in the 90s, I have five guys above Ovechkin (McDavid, McKinnon, Kucherov, Draisaitl, Matthews).

The 80s generation is a weak generation. Crosby is easily number 1. Then there's the debate between Ovechkin, Malkin, and Kane.

What in the world are you smoking with this? This is legitimately the generation that saved NHL hockey with how good they were and continue to be.

 

[Coldnwindy]

I don't see how this is a serious thread at all.
There's no case for Kucherov > Ovechkin at the current moment.
Kucherov can make a case if he has ~3-4 more stellar seasons.

 

[ezcreepin]

So Kucherov is better than Ovechkin in my opinion.

Your statistics contradict your theory, too.

You'll have a hard time convincing me that Ovechkin is better than Kucherov in the playoffs. Without 2018, we'd be seen as the biggest loser in history.

I mean we could do all time contribution to team offense, regular season and playoffs included if you really want?

Ovechkin - 33.8% total contribution
Kucherov - 32.6% total contribution

Sure, if you want to look at it that way you can, but he won so it's a moot point. What if he had won all the previous years? Then we would've seen the greatest winner in history! I can also play what ifs, but time moves sequentially in one direction in this moment in time, so conjuring up hypotheticals when talking about the past makes no sense.

At this point, it really just feels like a troll post. When you can't engage in facts of reality of each player and continue to say "your stats contradict your theory" without really saying anything else, I know that the convo is over. No doubt Kucherov is an amazing player, will likely be a top 25 point getter all time barring any injuries, and has won more often with a much better constructed team consisting of 3+ hall of famers and any given point, but Ovechkin at this point in time has been the better play for their team.

 

[Herregud]

HFBoards continues to be a place where if two players exist in a discussion, only one can be great and the other is obviously garbage. In fact, their entire generation is garbage.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

I mean we could do all time contribution to team offense, regular season and playoffs included if you really want?

Ovechkin - 33.8% total contribution
Kucherov - 32.6% total contribution

Sure, if you want to look at it that way you can, but he won so it's a moot point. What if he had won all the previous years? Then we would've seen the greatest winner in history! I can also play what ifs, but time moves sequentially in one direction in this moment in time, so conjuring up hypotheticals when talking about the past makes no sense.

At this point, it really just feels like a troll post. When you can't engage in facts of reality of each player and continue to say "your stats contradict your theory" without really saying anything else, I know that the convo is over. No doubt Kucherov is an amazing player, will likely be a top 25 point getter all time barring any injuries, and has won more often with a much better constructed team consisting of 3+ hall of famers and any given point, but Ovechkin at this point in time has been the better play for their team.

That's your point of view. I don't share the same opinion at all.

I think Kucherov has the best game to help his team, and the results have proven it. Your arguments seem flimsy and unconvincing to me.

Anyway, I already had my mind made up last year. It's just that this past year has reinforced my idea.

Good continuation.

 

[crowi]

That's your point of view. I don't share the same opinion at all.

I think Kucherov has the best game to help his team, and the results have proven it. Your arguments seem flimsy and unconvincing to me.

Anyway, I already had my mind made up last year. It's just that this past year has reinforced my idea.

Good continuation.

Your "idea" is not based in reality. Have fun arguing dreams compared to reality.

Ovechkin is the best russian player of all time, and will soon hold the record for most goals in history. Kucherov is not there.

 

[qcal1427]

Yes. If you take out the best years of Kucherov's career, his career looks very similar to guys that are clearly a tier below him. Just like if you take out the best years of Ovi's career, he looks very similar to guys that are clearly a tier below him!

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Your "idea" is not based in reality. Have fun arguing dreams compared to reality.

Ovechkin is the best russian player of all time, and will soon hold the record for most goals in history. Kucherov is not there.

You don't own reality.

The goal-scoring record doesn't determine who is the best.

There are plenty of players in history better than Ovechkin with fewer goals.

If Matthews breaks Ovechkin's record in 12 years, it won't make him a better player than McDavid, McKinnon, or Kucherov.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

And if you look at Kucherov outside 2022-25 Corey Perry or Taylor Hall are better players ...

This is where you lost your credibility on the subject.

 

[Fantomas]

If Matthews breaks Ovechkin's record in 12 years, it won't make him a better player than McDavid, McKinnon, or Kucherov.

LOL, if Matthews does that he'll be a freaking legend

 

[Video Nasty]

What in the world are you smoking with this? This is legitimately the generation that saved NHL hockey with how good they were and continue to be.

How did they save hockey?

 

[Herregud]

How did they save hockey?

People were already turning away from the league because it was absolutely boring, and then the lockout happened. Just go look up NHL ratings from 2004. A barely relevant sport. Today, defensive fans will be quick to compare hockey to the flagging NBA, but you'd be laughed out of the building if you considered trying to make that argument back then.

If Crosby weren't so worlds apart good and Ovechkin wasn't so damn entertaining, who knows where the sport would be today. Certainly not preparing for a run of years where the cap is expected to balloon the way it is.

It's the same reason people find it hard to put LeBron in a situation where they consider him greater than Jordan. It's a matter of the substance added to the game. McDavid is amazing, so is Kucherov and anyone who says otherwise is a fool, but neither of them breathed life into the sport like Ovechkin and Crosby did. Then came the Kanes and the Malkins, etc.

And now here we are 20 or so years later with Crosby still over a PPG (just three points out of the top 10 in points) and Ovechkin *still* in the top 10 in goal-scoring despite missing 16 games. It's going to take a lot for people who've been around from the beginning to agree that any sort of "better than" case can be made for people who still have half or more of their careers to go (if they're lucky).
---

And personally, for me, it seems like every year you have a handful of people and at least one new face capable of getting 50 goals or 110 pts. That just wasn't happening when Crosby and Ovechkin were in their primes. As individuals players went, it was them. Just them. There were certainly deep teams that had success, but when you wanted to look at a player and say, concretely, that they were the face of their sport. It was them. As good as the players are today, I don't think there is a face of hockey. McDavid may be the closest? A good chunk of that is probably league parity, but it just doesn't feel the same.

 

[EpiK Sandwich]

Will Kucherov be the greatest goal scorer in NHL history? (No).. so um... No.

 

[olli]

Can't believe too no one has brought up that Kucherov's two Cups are Mickey Mouse COVID wins ...

Because that is all in your head, you know you’re smoking Copium. You know he had back to back 30 point playoffs. You know how important he was.

 

[centipede2233]

LOL, if Matthews does that he'll be a freaking legend

Matthews doesn’t have ovie’s real superpower, durability

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

LOL, if Matthews does that he'll be a freaking legend

He's currently ahead of Ovechkin at the same age with significantly higher efficiency, a higher goal ceiling per season and a more complete game, yet he's not considered on the same level as McDavid, Kucherov, McKinnon, and Draisaitl.

 

[Nathaniel]

People were already turning away from the league because it was absolutely boring, and then the lockout happened. Just go look up NHL ratings from 2004. A barely relevant sport. Today, defensive fans will be quick to compare hockey to the flagging NBA, but you'd be laughed out of the building if you considered trying to make that argument back then.

If Crosby weren't so worlds apart good and Ovechkin wasn't so damn entertaining, who knows where the sport would be today. Certainly not preparing for a run of years where the cap is expected to balloon the way it is.

It's the same reason people find it hard to put LeBron in a situation where they consider him greater than Jordan. It's a matter of the substance added to the game. McDavid is amazing, so is Kucherov and anyone who says otherwise is a fool, but neither of them breathed life into the sport like Ovechkin and Crosby did. Then came the Kanes and the Malkins, etc.

And now here we are 20 or so years later with Crosby still over a PPG (just three points out of the top 10 in points) and Ovechkin *still* in the top 10 in goal-scoring despite missing 16 games. It's going to take a lot for people who've been around from the beginning to agree that any sort of "better than" case can be made for people who still have half or more of their careers to go (if they're lucky).
---

And personally, for me, it seems like every year you have a handful of people and at least one new face capable of getting 50 goals or 110 pts. That just wasn't happening when Crosby and Ovechkin were in their primes. As individuals players went, it was them. Just them. There were certainly deep teams that had success, but when you wanted to look at a player and say, concretely, that they were the face of their sport. It was them. As good as the players are today, I don't think there is a face of hockey. McDavid may be the closest? A good chunk of that is probably league parity, but it just doesn't feel the same.

Yup. The 51 goal 109 and 56 and 110 point ovechkin would wreck havoc on this soft butter offensive league.