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Is There a Case For Kucherov > Ovechkin?

Video Nasty said:
I’m just not as impressed as you are. I saw him play as well. I mourn the five year early loss of the player he was. Ovechkin pre-Olympics and after are entirely different players and might as well be from different planets.

I’m not particularly wowed with him winning an additional Hart and runner up nomination during seasons where the top end talent among top forwards was some of the all-time worst for the NHL.
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Ah yea his Hart in 2013 doesn't count because he only beat out some bum named Sidney Crosby ...
Video Nasty said:
While he’s about to earn the career goals record and should be applauded for doing so, I’m just as unfazed by his total number of Rockets because he didn’t have a single legitimate consistent threat. His one true threat for the trophy, Stamkos, had his trajectory altered right as the two were trading the trophy back and forth. Zero doubt in my mind that Stamkos plucks at least three of Ovechkin’s nine Rockets.
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Take away 3 Rockets for no other reason other than "there's zero doubt in my mind" and Ovi has still led the league in goals 6 times. Kucherov has led in assists twice.
Video Nasty said:
I’m far more impressed by how long Kucherov has been performing like this and has been doing so against the likes of players like McDavid and MacKinnon, while not disappearing from scoring races far earlier than he should have.
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Ovechkin's peak has been longer than Kucherov's. Ovechkin had 6 years between his first and last Harts, 7 between his first and last top 5 finishes, 17(!) years between his first and last top 10 finish, 14 between his first and last first-team all-star selections. Even if Ovi did "disappear" earlier than he should have, he arrived significantly earlier than Kucherov did. Why did it take Kucherov so long to get up to speed?

Kucherov is a very impressive 4th in points and assists since he came into the league, ~70 back of McDavid in both categories. Ovechkin in that time-frame (removing his entire peak) has ~150 more goals than 2nd place. Just completely dominant over his peers in a way Kucherov never has and never will
 
authentic said:
Brother you just listed all their awards like I’m not aware Ovechkin’s the greatest goal scorer of all-time.

Did you happen to look at the points scored you just posted for each of them here? 🤣

Thanks for proving my point!
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You do realize that goals are more valuable than assists, right?
 
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authentic said:
Brother you just listed all their awards like I’m not aware Ovechkin’s the greatest goal scorer of all-time.

Did you happen to look at the points scored you just posted for each of them here? 🤣

Thanks for proving my point!
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There are ~1.67 assists for every goal. Goals are significantly more valuable than assists.

I listed all their awards taking out Ovechkin's best 5 seasons.
 
Lou Sassole said:
You do realize that goals are more valuable than assists, right?
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Sure, but you’re comparing him to a player about to win his 3rd Art Ross, who also produces better in the playoffs. It’s not such a one sided affair anymore.

I still take Ovechkin from 2007-10 over Kucherov all else being equal (though that becomes a tossup for playoffs really), but it’s wayy closer than you guys are claiming. What he’s done since 2010 elevates him on an all-time level for sure, but he hasn’t become a better player since then.
 
authentic said:
Sure, but you’re comparing him to a player about to win his 3rd Art Ross, who also produces better in the playoffs. It’s not such a one sided affair anymore.

I still take Ovechkin from 2007-10 over Kucherov all else being equal (though that becomes a tossup for playoffs really), but it’s wayy closer than you guys are claiming. What he’s done since 2010 elevates him on an all-time level for sure, but he hasn’t become a better player since then.
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He hasn't become a better player since 2010? Is that your contention?
 
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authentic said:
Sure, but you’re comparing him to a player about to win his 3rd Art Ross, who also produces better in the playoffs. It’s not such a one sided affair anymore.

I still take Ovechkin from 2007-10 over Kucherov all else being equal (though that becomes a tossup for playoffs really), but it’s wayy closer than you guys are claiming. What he’s done since 2010 elevates him on an all-time level for sure, but he hasn’t become a better player since then.
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This is a f***ing absurd opinion. It's not close. Him not "becoming a better player" since 2010 isn't exactly the flex you think it is. It's hard to get better than being the greatest goal scorer of all time. Complete absurdity, man.

EDIT: You can laugh at my post. That's fine. We're all laughing at you!
 
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authentic said:
Sure, but you’re comparing him to a player about to win his 3rd Art Ross, who also produces better in the playoffs. It’s not such a one sided affair anymore.
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Art Ross for playmakers is equivalent to the Rocket for goal scorers. Ovechkin has lead the league in goals 9 times, Kucherov has lead the league in assists twice (probably will be three after this year).
authentic said:
I still take Ovechkin from 2007-10 over Kucherov all else being equal (though that becomes a tossup for playoffs really), but it’s wayy closer than you guys are claiming. What he’s done since 2010 elevates him on an all-time level for sure, but he hasn’t become a better player since then.
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No shit he hasn't become a better player. His 2005-2010 are much better than you're claiming, and his post 2010 career was still so good that it's pretty much on par with everything Kucherov has done in Kucherov's entire career.

Once again, talk to me when Kucherov wins back-to-back Harts or the Lindsay three years in a row.

Kucherov is a great player, probably top 100 all-time. He belongs in Malkin/Kane conversations, not Ovechkin/Crosby ones.
 
qcal1427 said:
Ah yea his Hart in 2013 doesn't count because he only beat out some bum named Sidney Crosby ...

Take away 3 Rockets for no other reason other than "there's zero doubt in my mind" and Ovi has still led the league in goals 6 times. Kucherov has led in assists twice.

Ovechkin's peak has been longer than Kucherov's. Ovechkin had 6 years between his first and last Harts, 7 between his first and last top 5 finishes, 17(!) years between his first and last top 10 finish, 14 between his first and last first-team all-star selections. Even if Ovi did "disappear" earlier than he should have, he arrived significantly earlier than Kucherov did. Why did it take Kucherov so long to get up to speed?

Kucherov is a very impressive 4th in points and assists since he came into the league, ~70 back of McDavid in both categories. Ovechkin in that time-frame (removing his entire peak) has ~150 more goals than 2nd place. Just completely dominant over his peers in a way Kucherov never has and never will
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Ovechkin won a Hart in 2013 because his top peer missed 12 games and no one else had a convincing case. Let’s not pretend that Ovechkin fended off a gauntlet.

You and I clearly define peak in different ways. Your criteria is very forgiving and you cast a very wide net. Mine is more critical and scraping a few votes to get a #10 Hart finish or never truly being a threat in a scoring race adds very little for me.

Besides, I can twist this around like you do. Kucherov is knocking on the door of a third Art Ross, all won from age 25 onwards. He’s on track to be a back to back winner. He has two additional top 3 finishes in what could be three wins. Ovechkin has a lone Art Ross, none past the age of 22, and despite popular belief, it’s not only because Crosby and Malkin existed.

Perhaps Kucherov doesn’t end up winning any hardware during these final nine games and drops off a cliff from here on out, but if he keeps at this for much longer, it’s going to get very uncomfortable for those who think hockey begins and ends with Crosby and Ovechkin.
 
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authentic said:
Peak Ovechkin would be lucky to win an Art Ross against Kucherov these past few seasons, maybe 2009-10 in a full season would’ve been the only time he had a chance.
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I don't know. He beat Crosby in PPG three seasons in a row from '08-'10. Is Kucherov a better point producer than young Crosby? I guess it's possible.

One thing that should be mentioned is he does have better linemate support than those two had at times early on. In seasons like '06 and '08, Ovechkin produced points at a very high clip without much help, and Crosby didn't have players like Point and Guentzel on his line in the 2000s.
 
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Youngsters just know OV as the guy spotting up on the powerplay.

They don't remember when he was doing nonsense like this:


On top of him just physically wrecking people all over the ice.
 
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Video Nasty said:
Neither belong on it. Despite the post-lockout generation’s insistence, despite as close as players like Crosby and Ovechkin have gotten, the only one with a legitimate case to remold Hockey’s Mount Rushmore is McDavid.
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I'm as big a Mcdavid fan as anyone but he's not worthy yet. He still needs to win some Cups, more personal hardware and finish 2nd in all time points to get on there. Ovi becoming the all time leading goal scorer during this generation of hockey is absolutely nuts, especially considering the time he missed from lockouts and covid. In my opinion he deserves to be on it.
 
5 or 10 years after Kucherov's retirement, very few people outside of the people who follow the Lightning are going to automatically remember that he had a 100 point season. It's going to be one of those "Oh shit, right, ya he did have a 100 assist season" type situation for most fans.

5 or 10 years after Ovechkin retires, literally everyone is going to be able to remember who the greatest goal scorer of all time is. On top of that, he also might be top 10 in points if he plays next year and beats Joe Sakic's numbers which by all accounts seems likely.

He's turning 32 right now and has 982 points. Let's say he ends up in in the 1400 - 1500 point range which would require another 5 - 6 years playing at a 80 - 100 point pace. He'd still have less points than Ovechkin, and would be lumped in with a bunch of different guys.

You're trying to compare someone, who statistically is going to be in the top 30 - 35 players (I'm including defense and goalies as well in this calculation), to someone who is going to break a record that nobody thought would be broken and is number 1 in that category.

When people ask "who the greatest NHL scorer is?", the answer is going to be Ovechkin.

It's almost doing a disservice to Kucherov by trying to do this.
 
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Video Nasty said:
Ovechkin won a Hart in 2013 because his top peer missed 12 games and no one else had a convincing case. Let’s not pretend that Ovechkin fended off a gauntlet.

You and I clearly define peak in different ways. Your criteria is very forgiving and you cast a very wide net. Mine is more critical and scraping a few votes to get a #10 Hart finish or never truly being a threat in a scoring race adds very little for me.

Besides, I can twist this around like you do. Kucherov is knocking on the door of a third Art Ross, all won from age 25 onwards. He’s on track to be a back to back winner. He has two additional top 3 finishes in what could be three wins. Ovechkin has a lone Art Ross, none past the age of 22, and despite popular belief, it’s not because Crosby and Malkin existed.
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There are ~1.67 assists per goal. Goals are less frequent than assists. The Art Ross is a playmaker's award, just like the Rocket is a goalscorer's award. Ovechkin has led the league in goals 9 times, Kucherov has led the league in assists 2 (maybe 3 this year) times.

You are the one that arbitrarily is defining a "peak" as ages 25-30. Ovechkin's best "x" years are better than Kucherov's "x" best years, often significantly so, no matter what the timeframe is.
 
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Another season that further convinces me that Kucherov is a better player than Ovechkin was.

An eighth consecutive season with a crazy level.
 
qcal1427 said:
Art Ross for playmakers is equivalent to the Rocket for goal scorers. Ovechkin has lead the league in goals 9 times, Kucherov has lead the league in assists twice (probably will be three after this year).

No shit he hasn't become a better player. His 2005-2010 are much better than you're claiming, and his post 2010 career was still so good that it's pretty much on par with everything Kucherov has done in Kucherov's entire career.

Once again, talk to me when Kucherov wins back-to-back Harts or the Lindsay three years in a row.

Kucherov is a great player, probably top 100 all-time. He belongs in Malkin/Kane conversations, not Ovechkin/Crosby ones.
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I don’t think you guys are comprehending what I’m saying here exactly, but I’ll leave you with this…

Here are adjusted playoffs points to average level of team defense faced, adjusted to Gretzky’s 1984 levels, for career (among players top 250 in actual playoff points)

Connor McDavid 2.15
Leon Draisaitl 2
Wayne Gretzky 1.97
Mario Lemieux 1.91
Bobby Orr 1.79
Nathan MacKinnon 1.77
Peter Forsberg 1.67
Mikko Rantanen 1.67
Nikita Kucherov 1.61
Joe Sakic 1.6
Sidney Crosby 1.58
Gordie Howe 1.57
Jean Beliveau 1.54
Bobby Hull 1.5
Cale Makar 1.48
Phil Esposito 1.47
Evgeni Malkin 1.46
Ryan Getzlaf 1.42
Patrick Kane 1.41
Gilbert Perreault 1.41
Brayden Point 1.4
Mark Messier 1.35
Jake Guentzel 1.35
Alex Delvecchio 1.34
Mats Sundin 1.34

No Ovechkin here at all

…

Now for best consecutive 70 games stretch

Gretzky 158.3
McDavid 156.6
Lemieux 151
Draisaitl 148.7
Howe 147.5
Esposito 145.8
Forsberg 134.6
Jagr 134.1
Kucherov 132
Crosby 131.9
Lafleur 130.4
Orr 129.7
MacKinnon 128.5
Sakic 126.6
Getzlaf 126.5
Rantanen 126
Geoffrion 125
Malkin 121.4
Beliveau 120.5
Hull 119.2
Lindsay 118.5
Bucky 116.8
Zetterberg 115.9
Bossy 114.4

You can go all the way to Yvan Cournoyer at 106.9 and Ovechkin doesn’t even show up for best 70 games stretch in the playoffs..

Infact if you take the best 70 games for goal scoring only Ovechkin ties for 18th with Zetterberg and Guentzel, and falls slightly behind Point, who is largely set up by Kucherov.

Tack on a 3rd Art Ross to this and a 7 year stretch challenging for top point producer vs. 3 and it’s not a stretch to say he’s close to peak Ovechkin. Listing their career accomplishments over and over doesn’t change this.
 
McShogun99 said:
I'm as big a Mcdavid fan as anyone but he's not worthy yet. He still needs to win some Cups, more personal hardware and finish 2nd in all time points to get on there. Ovi becoming the all time leading goal scorer during this generation of hockey is absolutely nuts, especially considering the time he missed from lockouts and covid. In my opinion he deserves to be on it.
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I guarantee that if the Oilers win a Cup in three months, McDavid has most of the hockey world cementing him in as #5 all-time. We already saw some of the most diehard Crosby fans around here declaring him so after his Game 4 and Game 5 performances.

I agree that he needs 15-20 seasons in the books and the final page of his story written to have a consensus new remolded Big Five, which would take a reconstruction of hockey’s Mount Rushmore.

Ovechkin’s record and whatever total he ends with is absolutely incredible, but I just don’t see the hockey Mount Rushmore arguments. The Big Four check all the boxes and have nothing missing. Even Orr won more scoring titles. Advancing past the second round once in twenty years doesn’t scream Mount Rushmore worthy either.

Nothing wrong with Ovechkin settling in no higher than #7 all-time when the dust settles on his, Crosby, and McDavid’s career. He’s also simply not better than even Jagr, but I understand the prestige of the goal record will make it borderline impossible for people to overlook.
 
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GlitchMarner said:
I don't know. He beat Crosby in PPG three seasons in a row from '08-'10. Is Kucherov a better point producer than young Crosby? I guess it's possible.

One thing that should be mentioned is he does have better linemate support than those two had at times early on. In seasons like '06 and '08, Ovechkin produced points at a very high clip without much help, and Crosby didn't have players like Point and Guentzel on his line in the 2000s.
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Before Crosby reached his peak? Probably yeah.

Also note: I never even said Kucherov was better than peak Ovechkin, I said it’s wayy closer than some are willing to admit, and outside of that 2007-10 Kucherov is a better player (not in career accomplishments, and longevity as a goal scorer, obviously).

Look at those adjusted playoffs points, he’s right there with Crosby and that includes Crosby’s actual peak from 2010-14.

No I don’t think he’s quite as good as either at their absolute peaks and won’t rank among the top 10 players of all-time when it’s all said and done. However, he doesn’t appear to be slowing down yet and may get a lot closer than we imagine.
 
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