Is There a Case For Kucherov > Ovechkin?

[hamzarocks]

Top 10 in scoring is not elite in 2018,2021? Crosby at age 36 was 12th. Age 35, 15th, age 37 is 11th. Lets see what kuch is doing in 5-6 years.

No it wasnt elite

2018 - He was 10th in pts and 13th in ppg (Kucherov right now is 2nd in pts and 1st in ppg in his 31 year old season)

2020 - Pts wise too back due to injury but 13th in ppg (We will see in 1 year from now for Kucherov but very unlikely hes 13th in ppg)

2021 - 10th in pts and 11th in ppg (we will see in 2 years from now but again unlikely Kucherov but again unlikely hes 11th in ppg)

2022 - 24th in pts and 17th in ppg

2023 - 16th in pts and 19th in ppg

2024 - 12th in pts and 16th in ppg

2025 - 11th in pts and 15th in ppg

 

[Nathaniel]

No it wasnt elite

2018 - He was 10th in pts and 13th in ppg (Kucherov right now is 2nd in pts and 1st in ppg in his 31 year old season)

2020 - Pts wise too back due to injury but 13th in ppg (We will see in 1 year from now for Kucherov but very unlikely hes 13th in ppg)

2021 - 10th in pts and 11th in ppg (we will see in 2 years from now but again unlikely Kucherov but again unlikely hes 11th in ppg)

2022 - 24th in pts and 17th in ppg

2023 - 16th in pts and 19th in ppg

2024 - 12th in pts and 16th in ppg

2025 - 11th in pts and 15th in ppg

Crosby was 31 in 2019. 5th in points 2nd hart 4th in selke. Lets see like you said. He has LOTS to do. This not even including international play where Crosby is an all time great as well.

 

[hamzarocks]

Crosby at 31 was 2nd in hart voting and 4th in selke. Something kucherov could never sniff

1) Who cares about the selke in this discussion, Crosby was high in Selke finish the way Marner and Matthews have been in the past. Crosby is not a shut down center and he doesnt win you games with his defense.

2) Crosby 31 year season he was top 5 in the league. Kucherov is having a better year then that right now. Hes top 3 in the league, top 1 in ppg. Crosby was ~25 pts back of the ross ( to kucherov who passed Crosby as a player just in season and not all time ofcourse from 2018 onwards) and was not a lindsay finalist that year. Kucherov will potentially win the ross (be withing 5 pts at worst) be top 3 in hart and top 3 for lindsay.

Its clear Kucherovs age 31 year season > Crosbys Age 31 year season

 

[Nathaniel]

1) Who cares about the selke in this discussion, Crosby was high in Selke finish the way Marner and Matthews have been in the past. Crosby is not a shut down center and he doesnt win you games with his defense.

2) Crosby 31 year season he was top 5 in the league. Kucherov is having a better year then that right now. Hes top 3 in the league, top 1 in ppg. Crosby was ~25 pts back of the ross and was not a lindsay finalist that year. Kucherov will potentially win the ross (be withing 5 pts at worst) be top 3 in hart and top 3 for lindsay.

Its clear Kucherovs age 31 year season > Crosbys Age 31 year season

Nope. Crosby was a far better all around player in 2019 than kuch is right now.

 

[hamzarocks]

Nope. Crosby was a far better all around player in 2019 than kuch is right now.

You can keep thinking that lol. Crosby got his ass shut down come playoffs and swept out of the playoffs after his elite "all round season". He was not a threat for anything by then and he showed it in the playoffs and the years that came afterwards

The lengths you go to pretend Crosby was in discussion for the best player in the league after 2017 is absurd.

 

[Nathaniel]

You can keep thinking that lol. Crosby got his ass shut down come playoffs and swept out of the playoffs after his elite "all round season". He was not a threat for anything by then and he showed it in the playoffs and the years that came afterwards

The lengths you go to pretend Crosby was in discussion for the best player in the league after 2017 is absurd.

Playoffs? How many smythes does kucherov have again?

 

[hamzarocks]

Playoffs? How many smythes does kucherov have again?

You wont win many arguments when discussing playoffs as Kucherov is the best playoff winger since 05. Kucherov in the playoffs up to now is closer to Crosby's entire career for just playoffs then he is regular season wise

Crosby got gifted 1 smythe in 2016

Kucherov got robbed of a smythe in 2020.

Kucherov is a career 93 pt player per 82 coming into his 31 year playoffs.

Crosby was a 93 pt player per 82 after his 31 year playoffs (2019 playoffs)

Kucherov led the playoffs 2 times in pts vs Crosbys 1-time. I would still have Crosby as the better playoff player at this point, but Kucherov is right there challenging him statistically and being the best player for 2 cups, and 4 final run team.

But again you changed the argument. Crosbys 31 year season showed his decline with 1 pt in 4 playoff games. He was 28 pts back of Kucherov for the hart in 2019 with 3 less games played.

His 2019 season wasn not that of a better players than 2019 Kucherov by players & medoa voting

His 2019 wont be a better player than 2025 Kucherov who carries more of the offensive load and is still top 1 in ppg and top 2 in pts.

 

[wetcoast]

Hitting the ground running doesnt matter if Kucherov can still end with better peak and prime than Crosby/OV.

It does matter because even a "better prime for Kuch is going to be offset by seasons in the Q and AHL.

Yes hes behind now, no doubt. He needs to do what hes done the last 3 years for another 3-4 seasons to make it a lot closer.

He does need to do that and that's also unlikely but time will tell.

Ovi is alot closer than Crosby (basically Kuch can't catch Crosby) though and even then I doubt he can do enough to catch him.

Kucherov has continued to prove doubters wrong and is playing at a higher level at 31 then either Crosby or OV were.

Kuch has a case for scoring prime against Ovi but Ovi has 1776 adjusted points, Kuch has 1023 (assuming both players keep their apce this season.

Is Kuch going to evens core another 750 more adjust points....maybe?

We'll see how he ages but his style of play should not hurt him compared to Mackinnon whose skating needs to stay at a high level to make up for his lower IQ/awareness compared to Kucherov/Crosby/Mcdavid type players.

I dunno Mack is already ahead of Kuch in adjusted points and 2 years younger.

Numbers might change slightly since their last 10ish games this year are prorated.

Mack 1085
Kuch 123

5 years we'll now if he ends up a Crosby/OV tier player or falls out and ends a Yzermann/Lafleur/Sakic/Bossy tier player

I think one can make a case for Kuch/Lafleur/Bossy right now (postseason coming up as all 3 are wingers.

For the centers it's a harder comparison as both guys had defensive chops and Kuch doesn't compare well there.

 

[Nathaniel]

You wont win when discussing playoffs as Kucherov is the best playoff winger simce 05.

Crosby got gifted 1 smythe in 2016

Kucherov got robbed of a smythe in 2020.

Kucherov is a career 93 pt player per 82 coming into his 31 year playoffs.

Crosby was a 93 pt player per 82 after his 31 year playoffs.

Kucherov led the playoffs 2 times in pts vs Crosbys 1-time.

Again you changed the argument. Crosbys 31 year season showed.his decline with 1 pt in 4 playoff games. He was 28 pts back of Kucherov for the hart in 2019 with 3 less games played.

His 2019 season wasn not that of a better players than 2019 Kucherov by players & medoa voting

His 2019 wont be a better player than 2025 Kucherov who carries more of the offensive load and is still top 1 in ppg and top 2 in pts.

Crosby has the far better playoff resume as besides his two smythes of which Kucherov again has a big fat 0. Also a big fat 0 when it comes to richards. Crosby has 2 additional runs that are better/as good as kucherovs best 2 non playoff mvp winning runs.

 

[atlanticobserver]

I think it's tough to say Kucherov is better, but if he keeps on printing 100 point seasons for the next 3-4 years, I think it will be close. I think he would probably need another Cup to really make it a conversation. If he pulls off the Ross with a few games less than MacKinnon that will definitely tighten the gap.

 

[atlanticobserver]

Crosby has the far better playoff resume as besides his two smythes of which Kucherov again has a big fat 0. Also a big fat 0 when it comes to richards. Crosby has 2 additional runs that are better/as good as kucherovs best 2 non playoff mvp winning runs.

Kucherov could easily have won the Smythe either of those Cup years. He topped Crosby's best playoff run points wise TWICE

 

[Nathaniel]

Kucherov could easily have won the Smythe either of those Cup years. He topped Crosby's best playoff run points wise TWICE

Scoring 31 points in 2009 is very different than scoring 32 in the 2020s. Very different.

 

[Video Nasty]

If people are being honest and not just caught up in the fairy tale of Crosby and Ovechkin “saving” the NHL during their childhood, yes, Kucherov is actively making a hell of case.

It’s going to get very uncomfortable if Kucherov continues doing things like winning a third Art Ross, which is as many as those two combined.

 

[hamzarocks]

It does matter because even a "better prime for Kuch is going to be offset by seasons in the Q and AHL.


He does need to do that and that's also unlikely but time will tell.

Ovi is alot closer than Crosby (basically Kuch can't catch Crosby) though and even then I doubt he can do enough to catch him.

Kuch has a case for scoring prime against Ovi but Ovi has 1776 adjusted points, Kuch has 1023 (assuming both players keep their apce this season.

Is Kuch going to evens core another 750 more adjust points....maybe?


I dunno Mack is already ahead of Kuch in adjusted points and 2 years younger.

Numbers might change slightly since their last 10ish games this year are prorated.

Mack 1085
Kuch 123


I think one can make a case for Kuch/Lafleur/Bossy right now (postseason coming up as all 3 are wingers.

For the centers it's a harder comparison as both guys had defensive chops and Kuch doesn't compare well there.

Defensive chops dont matter more than offensive choos and dominance

None of those guys could stop or contain Kucherov. This isnt basketball or NFL where you play tight and key defensive 1 on 1 coverage.

In a best of 7 Kucherov is producing well against any defense thrown at him.

Also Kucherov is not a bad defensive winger. Look at Kane hes a career +2. Even at his prime when the Hawks were dynasty level team he wasnt as good as Kucherov for ES results.

Kucherov is a +152 being closer to Crosby then OV, Kane, other all time wingers.

Defense in the NHL is goalie dependent and system dependent. Being a good defensive player does not negate high variances in offensive output.

But for the adjusted pts comment, if you assume that is a reliable and trusted formula then

Adjusted ppgs:

OV - 1.2 career ppg or 98 pts per 82
Mack - 1.25 career ppg or 103 pts per 82
Kuch - 1.29 career ppg or 106 pts per 82
Crosby - 1.36 career ppg or 112 pts per 82

Crosby in next two seasons likely goes down a bit.

Kucherov next 5 years will determine if he can catch Crosby or not. He needs to maintain increase his career ppg for this adjust ppg tool/stat which will take sustained dominance to do

 

[atlanticobserver]

Scoring 31 points in 2009 is very different than scoring 32 in the 2020s. Very different.

Not really. The points leaderboard for each playoff year is pretty consistent over the last 20 years or so

 

[Nathaniel]

Not really. The points leaderboard for each playoff year is pretty consistent over the last 20 years or so
View attachment 1001214

Check scoring levels. And 15 goals 31 points looks great against 7 goals 32 points

 

[hamzarocks]

Crosby has the far better playoff resume as besides his two smythes of which Kucherov again has a big fat 0. Also a big fat 0 when it comes to richards. Crosby has 2 additional runs that are better/as good as kucherovs best 2 non playoff mvp winning runs.

No he doesnt.

He has 3 smythe level runs in 2008, 2009 and 2017

He lost in 2008
He was outplayed by Malkin who had the best hockey he ever played
2017 he deserved it

2018 he was eliminated in R2, 2013 he was eliminated in R3 in 4 games

You need to have a Deep Conference finals run atleast if your using that as a dominant playoff run

Kucherov has 3 conn smythe level runs

2020, 2021, & 2022

His 2015 run is a bit below Smythe level but still strong for a SCF run.

Outside of those he has two very strong playoffs in 2016 and 2018 ECF runs

 

[Nathaniel]

Either way kucherov is a great playoff performer and in that regard can be discussed with Crosby sure. But his reg season resume is far behind at the moment

 

[hamzarocks]

Either way kucherov is a great playoff performer and in that regard can be discussed with Crosby sure. But his reg season resume is far behind at the moment

This I can agree on

He needs another 5 years of this play.

For OV probably another 3 years.

Is it >50% chance to pass Crosby, no not right now.

But no one would have thought an unathletic looking 2nd rounder from Russia in 2011 could be at this pt so deep into his career to challange 2 top 10 players ever even if at a distance as of 2025

 

[atlanticobserver]

Check scoring levels. And 15 goals 31 points looks great against 7 goals 32 points

Crosby won two Smythes without even leading in points and you're talking down on Kucherov for not having one despite leading the entire playoffs twice. Just saying

 

[atlanticobserver]

Either way kucherov is a great playoff performer and in that regard can be discussed with Crosby sure. But his reg season resume is far behind at the moment

Reasonable take

 

[Nathaniel]

No he doesnt.

He has 3 smythe level runs in 2008, 2009 and 2017

He lost in 2008
He was outplayed by Malkin who had the best hockey he ever played
2017 he deserved it

2018 he was eliminated in R2, 2013 he was eliminated in R3 in 4 games

You need to have a Deep Conference finals run atleast if your using that as a dominant playoff run

Kucherov has 3 conn smythe level runs

2020, 2021, & 2022

His 2015 run is a bit below Smythe level but still strong for a SCF run.

Outside of those he has two very strong playoffs in 2016 and 2018 ECF runs

Crosby has 4 smythe level runs as he won 2 and had 08 and 09. Besides that a strong 21 point in 12 gp 2018. A strong 19 in 13 gp in 2010. A very good 15 in 14 in 2013. A strong 10 in 6 in 2022. Crosby has 3 runs of 27+ points. Kucherov does make it a discussion in the playoffs though.

 

[Nathaniel]

Crosby won two Smythes without even leading in points and you're talking down on Kucherov for not having one despite leading the entire playoffs twice. Just saying

What does that tell you? That crosby brings more than just offence. Far more than kucherov. Offensively in the playoffs they are comparable. But everything else is Crosby

 

[hamzarocks]

Crosby has 4 smythe level runs as he won 2 and had 08 and 09. Besides that a strong 21 point in 12 gp 2018. A strong 19 in 13 gp in 2010. A very good 15 in 14 in 2013. A strong 10 in 6 in 2022. Crosby has 3 runs of 27+ points. Kucherov does make it a discussion in the playoffs though.

If your giving Crosby a 4th Smythe run for 2016 then Kucherov gets a 4th for 2015 as well as he had 22 in 26 which was similar play and production as Crosbys 2016 playoffs

Kucherov has 17 in 17, 19 in 17, and 7 in 5 to match Crosby for 2010, 2013, and 2022

They again both produce at exact same rate/very close up to their age 31 year in playoffs (both at 93 per 82 but Kucherov has his age 31 playoffs left to playout this season)

 

[hamzarocks]

What does that tell you? That crosby brings more than just offence. Far more than kucherov. Offensively in the playoffs they are comparable. But everything else is Crosby

That tells you Crosby got gifted a smythe he did not deserve by media and Kucherov got robbed of one he deserved by the media.