Is the impact of #1 Winger criminally underrated?

[Bank Shot]

Exactly right. It has nothing to do with their potential impact. In a lot of ways a winger can have more impact than a center because they can cheat more and focus on offense and it’s harder to find offense than defense. kucherov is a great example here. The stigma from Canada that wingers are just inferior talents than centers is definitely a driver of the perception.

On the other hand we have seen some teams win Cups in the cap era with pretty underwhelming wingers.
Detroit had two centers and then nobody else over 50 points in the regular season.
Pittsburgh won with like Fedotenko and Kuntiz their first go around.
Boston with Lucic as the number one guy.
Kings had Justin Williams heroics, but he wasn't really a star.

What we really have never seen happen in the cap era is a team win with like 2-3 star wingers and a guy like Ryan Strome or Brayden Schenn or Sean Monahan or RNH as their first line center.

Every single team that has won the Cup has either had an elite offensive or two way guy (sometimes both) in that role.

Until we see a donut team win the Cup, people are going to see wingers as the least important role.

 

[1989]

Until we see a donut team win the Cup, people are going to see wingers as the least important role.

Doughnut team brought to you by Tim Hortons!

 

[WarriorofTime]

#1 winger helps a team win a cup but I wouldnt say its a must like a #1D or #1C is. Doesn't have to be a superstar, just good enough like Marchessault was.

Marchessault was not a true #1 winger, although he had two more playoff points and won the Conn Smythe that particular year, the Knights "Number 1 Winger" the last however many years has been Mark Stone.

 

[WarriorofTime]

On the other hand we have seen some teams win Cups in the cap era with pretty underwhelming wingers.
Detroit had two centers and then nobody else over 50 points in the regular season.
Pittsburgh won with like Fedotenko and Kuntiz their first go around.
Boston with Lucic as the number one guy.
Kings had Justin Williams heroics, but he wasn't really a star.

What we really have never seen happen in the cap era is a team win with like 2-3 star wingers and a guy like Ryan Strome or Brayden Schenn or Sean Monahan or RNH as their first line center.

Every single team that has won the Cup has either had an elite offensive or two way guy (sometimes both) in that role.

Until we see a donut team win the Cup, people are going to see wingers as the least important role.

I think Wings played Datsyuk and Zetterberg together a lot though, which makes one of them the wing in such instance. They'd split up more when they had stronger wingers like a Hossa or a healthy and productive Franzen or whatever, to run two great lines instead of two pretty good lines.

 

[Bank Shot]

I think Wings played Datsyuk and Zetterberg together a lot though, which makes one of them the wing in such instance. They'd split up more when they had stronger wingers like a Hossa or a healthy and productive Franzen or whatever, to run two great lines instead of two pretty good lines.

You're right that they did play together often during that run. They still had an elite center on the ice though since one of them would be playing there.

I don't think it disproves my point that you never saw a team win without that elite center. We have seen teams win without the winger, the dman, and the goalie. Haven't seen it yet without an elite center.

Closest example would be the Ducks who didn't have a true elite guy going into the playoffs, but Getzlaf decided to have a coming out party.

 

[Trojans86]

On the other hand we have seen some teams win Cups in the cap era with pretty underwhelming wingers.
Detroit had two centers and then nobody else over 50 points in the regular season.
Pittsburgh won with like Fedotenko and Kuntiz their first go around.
Boston with Lucic as the number one guy.
Kings had Justin Williams heroics, but he wasn't really a star.

What we really have never seen happen in the cap era is a team win with like 2-3 star wingers and a guy like Ryan Strome or Brayden Schenn or Sean Monahan or RNH as their first line center.

Every single team that has won the Cup has either had an elite offensive or two way guy (sometimes both) in that role.

Until we see a donut team win the Cup, people are going to see wingers as the least important role.

True, but generally speaking centers are stronger than wingers. I think it’s more accurate to say to win a cup you need 2 very high level forwards. Very few teams have 2 elite wingers and 0 elite centers.

 

[LemonSauceD]

I think there’s really only 3-4 teams where you can say their top line winger is the most valuable player that they have.

Pastrnak/Boston, Kaprizov/Minnesota, Kucherov/Tampa, and Raymond/Detroit.

Even with Florida who has two elite wingers, Barkov is still very clearly the mvp.

There’s Instances where teams won without an elite winger/goalie but I can’t exactly remember a time where a team won off of an elite winger leading besides maybe Tampa in 04.

 

[PensandCaps]

a winger like Pasta, kuch and Kaprizov are just as valuable as an elite centre/D

 

[Pablo El Perro]

it gets overlooked because typically a number 1 center man can make his wingers look better then they are.

At times, albeit, rarely, the opposite can be true, ask Brendan Morrison, or Lindholm.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

This has my vote for the most dramatic thread title of the year.

Charged formerly, the NHL executives that award trophies, will do time in jail for missing wingers.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

This has my vote for the most dramatic thread title of the year.

Charged formerly, the NHL executives that award trophies, will do time in jail for missing wingers.

Criminally dramatic!

 

[LokiDog]

No. Where is Minnesota? Kaprizov is having a Hart-ish year, Brodin, Faber, Spurgeon, Middleton is a nice top 4 and Gustavsson’s more than adequate. Anyone putting money on them for a Cup or even WCF appearance? An elite center - not top 32, but more like top 15ish - is the best predictor of success in my 35 years of watching hockey. Wingers rarely win Cups unless you have a situation like Kane/Toews where the winger is better but the center is still genuinely elite.

 

[LokiDog]

#1 winger helps a team win a cup but I wouldnt say its a must like a #1D or #1C is. Doesn't have to be a superstar, just good enough like Marchessault was.

Essentially. Marchessault may have had the standout performance, but is he there and positioned to do so without the 1D and 1C? They won’t always have the best 20 game stretch in the playoffs but their work is the most valuable on any team.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

No. Where is Minnesota? Kaprizov is having a Hart-ish year, Brodin, Faber, Spurgeon, Middleton is a nice top 4 and Gustavsson’s more than adequate. An elite center - not top 32, but more like top 15ish - is the best predictor of success in my 35 years of watching hockey. Wingers rarely win Cups unless you have a situation like Kane/Toews where the winger is better but the center is still genuinely elite.

Going back, Howe was pretty good on cup teams.

 

[LokiDog]

Going back, Howe was pretty good on cup teams.

That’s like comparing films from the 1920s and 2020s. There was a time in this league where any player who was head and shoulders above their peers would dominate to an ungodly and never repeatable level because the genuine elite talent spread was extremely thin. Nowadays you have to be a percent of a percent to even make the show. Back in the day some guys literally had side jobs. Or rather pro hockey was their side job. It isn’t comparable, nor relevant.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

That’s like comparing films from the 1920s and 2020s. There was a time in this league where any player who was head and shoulders above their peers would dominate to an ungodly and never repeatable level because the genuine elite talent spread was extremely thin. Nowadays you have to be a percent of a percent to even make the show. Back in the day some guys literally had side jobs. Or rather pro hockey was their side job. It isn’t comparable, nor relevant.

It's relevant, not an apples to apples comparison. But relevant to the criminally dramatic thread. Mario Lemieux was a smoker, doesn't mean we should dismiss him when talking about great players.

And many films from the 50s, 60s, and 70s, are better than the 2020s.

 

[LokiDog]

It's relevant, not an apples to apples comparison. But relevant to the criminally dramatic thread. Mario Lemieux was a smoker, doesn't mean we should dismiss him when talking about great players.

And many films from the 50s, 60s, and 70s, are better than the 2020s.

You understand full well what I was saying though. Mario did not play Gordie’s prime days. The NHL is a younger industry that has seen more explosive growth in the talent pool. The advent of extensive international scouting alone probably tripled the talent pool, then you add modern nutrition and training, being a 1 sport athlete with a goal of a career from a young age, etc. Guy in Howe’s era worked in canning factories alongside playing NHL hockey.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

You understand full well what I was saying though. Mario did not play Gordie’s prime days. The NHL is a younger industry that has seen more explosive growth in the talent pool. The advent of extensive international scouting alone probably tripled the talent pool, then you add modern nutrition and training, being a 1 sport athlete with a goal of a career from a young age, etc. Guy in Howe’s era worked in canning factories alongside playing NHL hockey.

I do, and I am being light-hearted about it. Thanks to Howe's teammate, players no longer work second jobs. Still doesn't dismiss what certain guys did in that league, hence not an apples to apples comparison. But neither is comparing the 70s or 80s to today.

 

[WarriorofTime]

No. Where is Minnesota? Kaprizov is having a Hart-ish year, Brodin, Faber, Spurgeon, Middleton is a nice top 4 and Gustavsson’s more than adequate. Anyone putting money on them for a Cup or even WCF appearance? An elite center - not top 32, but more like top 15ish - is the best predictor of success in my 35 years of watching hockey. Wingers rarely win Cups unless you have a situation like Kane/Toews where the winger is better but the center is still genuinely elite.

To be clear, many of the teams described are just overall weaker teams where they have 1 marquee forward and then little else upfront.

Are there examples of teams that had 1 good center, little else in the way of forwards and won the Cup? That's just a really hard formula in general.

The difference is if a team has a great center and a great winger, people will say the team was "built around the center" up front... and only say a team is "built around a winger" when there is a massive gap between the star winger and every other forward on the team. Examples of these would be NYR with Panarin, Boston with Pastrnak, Minnesota with Kaprizov. Other great wingers like Kucherov, Marner, Connor, Rantanen, Tkachuk, Reinhart, Necas, Bratt are not considered teams "built around" such player because there is a Center that can be pointed to.

As far as the two centers who distinctly always play on separate lines at even strength (if at any point they are together, even in a coming back late scenario for a 'death line', one would now necessarily be the Winger) with just OK wingers, it's a rare scenario, Crosby and Malkin, each top 3 forwards of any kind overall is the best bet you'll get and after '09 it took until they got some better wingers (first Kessel, then Guentzel the following year) that fit the "star winger" mold to win again.

Now if the Rangers had say, Kucherov in addition to Panarin, so they have two superstar Wings, no superstar Center but OK ones, likely separated on lines so you have Kucherov carrying one ES line and Panarin another, similar to Crosby/Malkin for the Pens, but from Wing, not Center, is that a team precluded from a Cup because of Center? I don't necessarily think so. It's just not really a common enough scenario to get a good feel for it as a possibility, as most Cup teams have multiple high-end forwards, who at least some of whom occasionally play together at ES.

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

Wingers are a temperamental bunch. I agree with you but I do feel like it's very hard to win the cup when your best player is a winger. For special cases like Ovechkin, Kane, and Kucherov an exception to that rule should probably be made. These are generational players at their position and the league will be poorer when they're gone. They also had really strong centers, defenseman, and goalies when they won their cups.

Calgary has been trying to build around wingers since Iginla lit the world on fire in 2002 and along with Kipper nearly dragged a bunch of plumbers to a SC in 2004. I gotta tell ya the results generally with this strategy have not been great. Gaudreau and Tkachuk also elite wingers and hey big shocker the one that gets traded to a team with a top 5 C immediately makes the final in b2b years.

What was the Flames offer for Eichel anyways?

 

[LokiDog]

To be clear, many of the teams described are just overall weaker teams where they have 1 marquee forward and then little else upfront.

Are there examples of teams that had 1 good center, little else in the way of forwards and won the Cup? That's just a really hard formula in general.

The difference is if a team has a great center and a great winger, people will say the team was "built around the center" up front... and only say a team is "built around a winger" when there is a massive gap between the star winger and every other forward on the team. Examples of these would be NYR with Panarin, Boston with Pastrnak, Minnesota with Kaprizov. Other great wingers like Kucherov, Marner, Connor, Rantanen, Tkachuk, Reinhart, Necas, Bratt are not considered teams "built around" such player because there is a Center that can be pointed to.

As far as the two centers who distinctly always play on separate lines at even strength (if at any point they are together, even in a coming back late scenario for a 'death line', one would now necessarily be the Winger) with just OK wingers, it's a rare scenario, Crosby and Malkin, each top 3 forwards of any kind overall is the best bet you'll get and after '09 it took until they got some better wingers (first Kessel, then Guentzel the following year) that fit the "star winger" mold to win again.

Now if the Rangers had say, Kucherov in addition to Panarin, so they have two superstar Wings, no superstar Center but OK ones, likely separated on lines so you have Kucherov carrying one ES line and Panarin another, similar to Crosby/Malkin for the Pens, but from Wing, not Center, is that a team precluded from a Cup because of Center? I don't necessarily think so. It's just not really a common enough scenario to get a good feel for it as a possibility, as most Cup teams have multiple high-end forwards, who at least some of whom occasionally play together at ES.

While the answer to your thesis is “no, it does not preclude them from a Cup” we have nearly 25 years of history worth of “no elite C, no Cup”. Caveats being Anaheim (but McDonald had a very solid year while a rookie Getzlaf led the team in playoff scoring and would become the elite C), Boston (but Bergeron was elite, just not leaning as heavily on the offensive side - still undoubtedly elite, and backed by very solid Krejci), and St. Louis (and similar to Boston, O’Reilly was near elite but not quite Bergeron level either). It’s very hard to point to success in the modern NHL that hasn’t included an elite 1C.

 

[WarriorofTime]

While the answer to your thesis is “no, it does not preclude them from a Cup” we have nearly 25 years of history worth of “no elite C, no Cup”. Caveats being Anaheim (but McDonald had a very solid year while a rookie Getzlaf led the team in playoff scoring and would become the elite C), Boston (but Bergeron was elite, just not leaning as heavily on the offensive side - still undoubtedly elite, and backed by very solid Krejci), and St. Louis (and similar to Boston, O’Reilly was near elite but not quite Bergeron level either). It’s very hard to point to success in the modern NHL that hasn’t included an elite 1C.

Right but it's hard in general to point to teams without elite Forwards in general. Of course the term 'elite' is always up for debate anyways.

 

[LokiDog]

Right but it's hard in general to point to teams without elite Forwards in general. Of course the term 'elite' is always up for debate anyways.

No doubt you are right and no doubt a team that lucked into having, let’s say (equivalents of) Kaprizov, an ELC Rantanen, Makar and an ELC Faber, plus like Brodin, O’Reilly, Zegras, Seigenthaler and Markstrom (just feels like a not “unrealistic” mix of talent) could definitely be a force to be reckoned with and contend for several years, it certainly does seem to feel as though teams who lock down that prime aged 1C have the edge in roster building no matter what. Plenty of 1C’s have been squandered, no doubt, but it does start to feel like it holds pole position in roster building after a while.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Wingers are easily replaceable.

#1D and #1C are hard to get.