Is the impact of #1 Winger criminally underrated?

[Bank Shot]

Exactly right. It has nothing to do with their potential impact. In a lot of ways a winger can have more impact than a center because they can cheat more and focus on offense and it’s harder to find offense than defense. kucherov is a great example here. The stigma from Canada that wingers are just inferior talents than centers is definitely a driver of the perception.

On the other hand we have seen some teams win Cups in the cap era with pretty underwhelming wingers.
Detroit had two centers and then nobody else over 50 points in the regular season.
Pittsburgh won with like Fedotenko and Kuntiz their first go around.
Boston with Lucic as the number one guy.
Kings had Justin Williams heroics, but he wasn't really a star.

What we really have never seen happen in the cap era is a team win with like 2-3 star wingers and a guy like Ryan Strome or Brayden Schenn or Sean Monahan or RNH as their first line center.

Every single team that has won the Cup has either had an elite offensive or two way guy (sometimes both) in that role.

Until we see a donut team win the Cup, people are going to see wingers as the least important role.

 

[1989]

Until we see a donut team win the Cup, people are going to see wingers as the least important role.

Doughnut team brought to you by Tim Hortons!

 

[WarriorofTime]

#1 winger helps a team win a cup but I wouldnt say its a must like a #1D or #1C is. Doesn't have to be a superstar, just good enough like Marchessault was.

Marchessault was not a true #1 winger, although he had two more playoff points and won the Conn Smythe that particular year, the Knights "Number 1 Winger" the last however many years has been Mark Stone.

 

[WarriorofTime]

On the other hand we have seen some teams win Cups in the cap era with pretty underwhelming wingers.
Detroit had two centers and then nobody else over 50 points in the regular season.
Pittsburgh won with like Fedotenko and Kuntiz their first go around.
Boston with Lucic as the number one guy.
Kings had Justin Williams heroics, but he wasn't really a star.

What we really have never seen happen in the cap era is a team win with like 2-3 star wingers and a guy like Ryan Strome or Brayden Schenn or Sean Monahan or RNH as their first line center.

Every single team that has won the Cup has either had an elite offensive or two way guy (sometimes both) in that role.

Until we see a donut team win the Cup, people are going to see wingers as the least important role.

I think Wings played Datsyuk and Zetterberg together a lot though, which makes one of them the wing in such instance. They'd split up more when they had stronger wingers like a Hossa or a healthy and productive Franzen or whatever, to run two great lines instead of two pretty good lines.

 

[Bank Shot]

I think Wings played Datsyuk and Zetterberg together a lot though, which makes one of them the wing in such instance. They'd split up more when they had stronger wingers like a Hossa or a healthy and productive Franzen or whatever, to run two great lines instead of two pretty good lines.

You're right that they did play together often during that run. They still had an elite center on the ice though since one of them would be playing there.

I don't think it disproves my point that you never saw a team win without that elite center. We have seen teams win without the winger, the dman, and the goalie. Haven't seen it yet without an elite center.

Closest example would be the Ducks who didn't have a true elite guy going into the playoffs, but Getzlaf decided to have a coming out party.

 

[Trojans86]

On the other hand we have seen some teams win Cups in the cap era with pretty underwhelming wingers.
Detroit had two centers and then nobody else over 50 points in the regular season.
Pittsburgh won with like Fedotenko and Kuntiz their first go around.
Boston with Lucic as the number one guy.
Kings had Justin Williams heroics, but he wasn't really a star.

What we really have never seen happen in the cap era is a team win with like 2-3 star wingers and a guy like Ryan Strome or Brayden Schenn or Sean Monahan or RNH as their first line center.

Every single team that has won the Cup has either had an elite offensive or two way guy (sometimes both) in that role.

Until we see a donut team win the Cup, people are going to see wingers as the least important role.

True, but generally speaking centers are stronger than wingers. I think it’s more accurate to say to win a cup you need 2 very high level forwards. Very few teams have 2 elite wingers and 0 elite centers.

 

[LemonSauceD]

I think there’s really only 3-4 teams where you can say their top line winger is the most valuable player that they have.

Pastrnak/Boston, Kaprizov/Minnesota, Kucherov/Tampa, and Raymond/Detroit.

Even with Florida who has two elite wingers, Barkov is still very clearly the mvp.

There’s Instances where teams won without an elite winger/goalie but I can’t exactly remember a time where a team won off of an elite winger leading besides maybe Tampa in 04.

 

[PensandCaps]

a winger like Pasta, kuch and Kaprizov are just as valuable as an elite centre/D

 

[Pablo El Perro]

it gets overlooked because typically a number 1 center man can make his wingers look better then they are.

At times, albeit, rarely, the opposite can be true, ask Brendan Morrison, or Lindholm.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

This has my vote for the most dramatic thread title of the year.

Charged formerly, the NHL executives that award trophies, will do time in jail for missing wingers.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

This has my vote for the most dramatic thread title of the year.

Charged formerly, the NHL executives that award trophies, will do time in jail for missing wingers.

Criminally dramatic!

 

[LokiDog]

No. Where is Minnesota? Kaprizov is having a Hart-ish year, Brodin, Faber, Spurgeon, Middleton is a nice top 4 and Gustavsson’s more than adequate. Anyone putting money on them for a Cup or even WCF appearance? An elite center - not top 32, but more like top 15ish - is the best predictor of success in my 35 years of watching hockey. Wingers rarely win Cups unless you have a situation like Kane/Toews where the winger is better but the center is still genuinely elite.

 

[LokiDog]

#1 winger helps a team win a cup but I wouldnt say its a must like a #1D or #1C is. Doesn't have to be a superstar, just good enough like Marchessault was.

Essentially. Marchessault may have had the standout performance, but is he there and positioned to do so without the 1D and 1C? They won’t always have the best 20 game stretch in the playoffs but their work is the most valuable on any team.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

No. Where is Minnesota? Kaprizov is having a Hart-ish year, Brodin, Faber, Spurgeon, Middleton is a nice top 4 and Gustavsson’s more than adequate. An elite center - not top 32, but more like top 15ish - is the best predictor of success in my 35 years of watching hockey. Wingers rarely win Cups unless you have a situation like Kane/Toews where the winger is better but the center is still genuinely elite.

Going back, Howe was pretty good on cup teams.

 

[LokiDog]

Going back, Howe was pretty good on cup teams.

That’s like comparing films from the 1920s and 2020s. There was a time in this league where any player who was head and shoulders above their peers would dominate to an ungodly and never repeatable level because the genuine elite talent spread was extremely thin. Nowadays you have to be a percent of a percent to even make the show. Back in the day some guys literally had side jobs. Or rather pro hockey was their side job. It isn’t comparable, nor relevant.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

That’s like comparing films from the 1920s and 2020s. There was a time in this league where any player who was head and shoulders above their peers would dominate to an ungodly and never repeatable level because the genuine elite talent spread was extremely thin. Nowadays you have to be a percent of a percent to even make the show. Back in the day some guys literally had side jobs. Or rather pro hockey was their side job. It isn’t comparable, nor relevant.

It's relevant, not an apples to apples comparison. But relevant to the criminally dramatic thread. Mario Lemieux was a smoker, doesn't mean we should dismiss him when talking about great players.

And many films from the 50s, 60s, and 70s, are better than the 2020s.

 

[LokiDog]

It's relevant, not an apples to apples comparison. But relevant to the criminally dramatic thread. Mario Lemieux was a smoker, doesn't mean we should dismiss him when talking about great players.

And many films from the 50s, 60s, and 70s, are better than the 2020s.

You understand full well what I was saying though. Mario did not play Gordie’s prime days. The NHL is a younger industry that has seen more explosive growth in the talent pool. The advent of extensive international scouting alone probably tripled the talent pool, then you add modern nutrition and training, being a 1 sport athlete with a goal of a career from a young age, etc. Guy in Howe’s era worked in canning factories alongside playing NHL hockey.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

You understand full well what I was saying though. Mario did not play Gordie’s prime days. The NHL is a younger industry that has seen more explosive growth in the talent pool. The advent of extensive international scouting alone probably tripled the talent pool, then you add modern nutrition and training, being a 1 sport athlete with a goal of a career from a young age, etc. Guy in Howe’s era worked in canning factories alongside playing NHL hockey.

I do, and I am being light-hearted about it. Thanks to Howe's teammate, players no longer work second jobs. Still doesn't dismiss what certain guys did in that league, hence not an apples to apples comparison. But neither is comparing the 70s or 80s to today.