Is Peter Forsberg underrated?

[Fishy McScales]

I didn't budge to your riveting counter argument of "What more could he done than finish first?"
Not sure that's a signal of my lack of openness to hearing other opinions.

Unless I have miscalculated things, statistically, they both dominated their peers similarly on a per game basis but Sakic played more games. If you think that Jagr and Mario are in the same "peer" class as Naslund then I am not sure what to tell you.

My argument was that using points over a single season to determine one player was better than the other was an odd thing to do, especially since that other player even won the Art Ross at one point.

The argument is that this is not clear cut even if you elect to use it as a data point in evaluating the two players. Not that it proves Forsberg was better, just that it was an odd argument to use in the first place. Yet you seem hell bent on educating me on the pitifulness of the competition during that 2002-03 season. Thanks I guess?

I'm not sure you're using "riveting" correctly btw.

 

[authentic]

If you want to argue that their best full season = their peak, that's reasonable.

But that means you cannot give Forsberg any credit for missing games in 02/03 without opening up a reasonable discussion about Crosby's 10/11 season or his 12/13 season where he was lapping the field before getting injured at an age where historically GOAT talent reaches their peak. The general consensus is that Crosby wasn't quite at the same level in 13/14 as he was 10/11 to 12/13.

So you choose what you want to consider their "peak".

Forsberg has two excellent 3 round playoff performance but they are not as good as Crosby's performance through 3 rounds in 2009.

Not sure that intangibles places Forsberg above Crosby to the extent that you ignore a superior offensive ceiling especially when quality of linemates is considered.

Perhaps not above but close enough to the same level. I mean having watched both at their best I do not think it’s even remotely far fetched to prefer Forsberg in the playoffs.

 

[authentic]

Equally ridiculous. You’ve decided on the smallest, vaguest sample size, each detail of which is incredibly debatable. Peak Crosby is a better scorer, better playmaker, better puck dominator, better leader, and won everything individual and team based he possibly could multiple times. Forsberg was a dynamite player and deserving of his laurels, but the list of players who are Crosby’s peers is only a handful long. Forsberg isn’t on it. You can argue that there was a magical five minutes where Forsberg was as good as Crosby was if you’d like, but it’s a) wrong and b) a ridiculous comparison point that you’ve chosen in the first place.

Enjoy your thread.

Well that’s an extremely ignorant post, you believe Crosby was a clearly better puck dominator and playmaker than Forsberg, and ignore that Forsberg was obviously better defensively and physically, put up close to the same offense at his peak with less ice time and has a better goals per game and points per game in the playoffs - even up to the same age or number of games played and adjusted for era. Like it’s not unimaginable that Crosby wasn’t another level of talent and ability than Forsberg when you really look at the facts.

 

[Trendkill101]

I will say this, as a kid I grew up in a Leafs house, I was and still am a Leafs fan. That said, Peter Forsberg is my all time favorite player. I was 10 in 1996 and at that point in time I thought he was the most exciting player in hockey. He only went on to further cement that thought in my mind.

I believe there are a lot of people just like me, that grew up with him as their favorite player. Whether that makes him overrated in the grand scheme, it probably does to a degree. I'd probably have him around 40th all time. He had the skill to be further up the list but injuries simply prevented it.

 

[Ben White]

Well that’s an extremely ignorant post, you believe Crosby was a clearly better puck dominator and playmaker than Forsberg, and ignore that Forsberg was obviously better defensively and physically, put up close to the same offense at his peak with less ice time and has a better goals per game and points per game in the playoffs - even up to the same age or number of games played and adjusted for era. Like it’s not unimaginable that Crosby wasn’t another level of talent and ability than Forsberg when you really look at the facts.

People here are always driven by narratives in these discussions and not by facts

 

[Ben White]

I will say this, as a kid I grew up in a Leafs house, I was and still am a Leafs fan. That said, Peter Forsberg is my all time favorite player. I was 10 in 1996 and at that point in time I thought he was the most exciting player in hockey. He only went on to further cement that thought in my mind.

I believe there are a lot of people just like me, that grew up with him as their favorite player. Whether that makes him overrated in the grand scheme, it probably does to a degree. I'd probably have him around 40th all time. He had the skill to be further up the list but injuries simply prevented it.

In career value I think you’re right. But again, this thread is about a list worded “best” players of all time. Forsberg is without a doubt a top 20 “best” player all time when evaluating the facts.

 

[daver]

In career value I think you’re right. But again, this thread is about a list worded “best” players of all time. Forsberg is without a doubt a top 20 “best” player all time when evaluating the facts.

Among forwards, here are players who hit a higher level offensively:

Rocket Richard
Howe
Beliveau
Hull
Mikita
Esposito
Clarke
LaFleur
Wayne
Mario
Jagr
Crosby
Malkin
Ovechkin
McDavid

There are few arguables:

Lindsay
Sakic
Trottier
Bossy
Yzerman
MacKinnon
Kucherov

 

[Ben White]

Among forwards, here are players who hit a higher level offensively:

Rocket Richard
Howe
Beliveau
Hull
Mikita
Esposito
Clarke
LaFleur
Wayne
Mario
Jagr
Crosby
Malkin
Ovechkin
McDavid

There are few arguables:

Lindsay
Sakic
Trottier
Bossy
Yzerman
MacKinnon
Kucherov

So, even when only considering offense (which obviously we’re not), and while including arguables (none of which the majority of fans would say are better than Forsberg) he’s still top 20 according to your list. So even when throwing in a couple of dmen in the mix Forsberg is still arguably among top 20 best players all time. Our opinions are not that far from each other after all.

 

[authentic]

In career value I think you’re right. But again, this thread is about a list worded “best” players of all time. Forsberg is without a doubt a top 20 “best” player all time when evaluating the facts.

The easiest way to argue this is to take Lidstrom, a top 2-5 defenseman in most people’s minds, and around a top 10-20 player (I think he’s closer to 20 and probably outside on an actual “best” list though). At no point during their overlapping careers did people consider Lidstrom better, it was always plainly obvious Forsberg was the best Swedish player in existence.

 

[Fantast100]

There are few arguables:

Sakic
Kucherov

Kucherov might end up before Sakic.

 

[Dingo]

i personally agree with Tocchet here.

Lemieux, Fedorov and Datsyuk could hang on to the puck through traffic as well as Jags, Forsberg and Crosby, but when you add in 'digging it out of the corner' the three he mentions here are the best overall 'puck dominators'

I also agree with his order, but Sid is great, too. The three are top class, for sure.

 

[Crow]

Among forwards, here are players who hit a higher level offensively:

Rocket Richard
Howe
Beliveau
Hull
Mikita
Esposito
Clarke
LaFleur
Wayne
Mario
Jagr
Crosby
Malkin
Ovechkin
McDavid

There are few arguables:

Lindsay
Sakic
Trottier
Bossy
Yzerman
MacKinnon
Kucherov

I’d definitely add Brett hull too. Insane peak

 

[Fantast100]

Peter Forsberg is max of twelfth place over the years. True or false?

 

[Hippasus]

Peter Forsberg is max of twelfth place over the years. True or false?

12th or higher for best peak? Say, at least a full season and some playoffs? Following daver's list above on this page, and Brett Hull as suggested by Crow, I think the answer has got to be 'false'. Plus, they're just talking forwards. Off the top of my head, one could also throw in Orr and Coffey for defenseman that peaked higher. I say the answer is something like max top 25 for all-time peak when one also adds in some real old-timers like Newsy Lalonde and Joe Malone.

 

[Fantast100]

12th or higher for best peak? Say, at least a full season and some playoffs? Following daver's list above on this page, and Brett Hull as suggested by Crow, I think the answer has got to be 'false'. Plus, they're just talking forwards. Off the top of my head, one could also throw in Orr and Coffey for defenseman that peaked higher. I say the answer is something like max top 25 for all-time peak when one also adds in some real old-timers like Newsy Lalonde and Joe Malone.

Off the top of my top 15, two could also toss in Howe and Coffey.

And Forsberg's peak top 20 obviously,

And Selänne top 20 obviously.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I recently posted a summary of the best players based on per-game offensive production (based on VsX, the adjusted scoring method used on the history forum - over a player's best seven years). Here are the results from (approx) 1970 onwards:

Player	Vsx PPG
Wayne Gretzky	1.93
Mario Lemieux	1.76
Phil Esposito	1.61
Bobby Orr	1.56
Jaromir Jagr	1.49
Connor McDavid	1.47
Sidney Crosby	1.45
Guy Lafleur	1.37
Peter Forsberg	1.30
Evgeni Malkin	1.29
Nikita Kucherov	1.28
Marcel Dionne	1.27
Joe Sakic	1.27
Eric Lindros	1.26
Nathan MacKinnon	1.26
Leon Draisaitl	1.24
Alex Ovechkin	1.24
Patrick Kane	1.23
Mike Bossy	1.21
Joe Thornton	1.20
Teemu Selanne	1.20
Bryan Trottier	1.20
Steve Yzerman	1.19
Adam Oates	1.17
Paul Kariya	1.15

Forsberg ranks 9th over the past (approximately) 60 years, which is very impressive.

The pro-Forsberg way to interpret this is, at his peak, and on a per game basis, although he's not quite at the McDavid, Jagr or Crosby level, he's the best out of everyone else. This is based solely on regular season point production, so it doesn't give him credit for his strong playoff performances, or his two-way play. (Both of those factors would push him farther above Dionne, for example. And you can probably argue that playoffs are a wash between Forsberg, Malkin and Kucherov, but he was pretty clearly the best two-way force on that list).

The anti-Forsberg was to interpret this - he really hasn't separated himself from Sakic, Lindros, Malkin, Kucherov and MacKinnon. Remember that most of those players have injury-plagued seasons too, and if Forsberg gets credit for "what if" partial seasons, so should everyone else. Adjusted stats are a rough approximation and nobody should be arguing that Forsberg's 1.30 is meaningfully different from Malkin's 1.29, or Kucherov's 1.28, or Sakic's 1.27. Forsberg is one of the weakest goal scorers on the list (probably behind only Orr, Thornton and Oates), so if you place a premium on goal-scoring, several players would surpass him.

Based on all this, I don't think I'd have room for Forsberg in the top twenty. He's at the low end of the top ten based on the above list, but it doesn't include any goalies or defensemen (except Orr), and it doesn't include any pre-expansion players. But he's probably not that far off from the top twenty either. I haven't sat down and made a list, but my ballpark guess is Forsberg might end up around 30th in terms of "best peaks".

 

[Dingo]

I recently posted a summary of the best players based on per-game offensive production (based on VsX, the adjusted scoring method used on the history forum - over a player's best seven years). Here are the results from (approx) 1970 onwards:

Player	Vsx PPG
Wayne Gretzky	1.93
Mario Lemieux	1.76
Phil Esposito	1.61
Bobby Orr	1.56
Jaromir Jagr	1.49
Connor McDavid	1.47
Sidney Crosby	1.45
Guy Lafleur	1.37
Peter Forsberg	1.30
Evgeni Malkin	1.29
Nikita Kucherov	1.28
Marcel Dionne	1.27
Joe Sakic	1.27
Eric Lindros	1.26
Nathan MacKinnon	1.26
Leon Draisaitl	1.24
Alex Ovechkin	1.24
Patrick Kane	1.23
Mike Bossy	1.21
Joe Thornton	1.20
Teemu Selanne	1.20
Bryan Trottier	1.20
Steve Yzerman	1.19
Adam Oates	1.17
Paul Kariya	1.15

Forsberg ranks 9th over the past (approximately) 60 years, which is very impressive.

The pro-Forsberg way to interpret this is, at his peak, and on a per game basis, although he's not quite at the McDavid, Jagr or Crosby level, he's the best out of everyone else. This is based solely on regular season point production, so it doesn't give him credit for his strong playoff performances, or his two-way play. (Both of those factors would push him farther above Dionne, for example. And you can probably argue that playoffs are a wash between Forsberg, Malkin and Kucherov, but he was pretty clearly the best two-way force on that list).

The anti-Forsberg was to interpret this - he really hasn't separated himself from Sakic, Lindros, Malkin, Kucherov and MacKinnon. Remember that most of those players have injury-plagued seasons too, and if Forsberg gets credit for "what if" partial seasons, so should everyone else. Adjusted stats are a rough approximation and nobody should be arguing that Forsberg's 1.30 is meaningfully different from Malkin's 1.29, or Kucherov's 1.28, or Sakic's 1.27. Forsberg is one of the weakest goal scorers on the list (probably behind only Orr, Thornton and Oates), so if you place a premium on goal-scoring, several players would surpass him.

Based on all this, I don't think I'd have room for Forsberg in the top twenty. He's at the low end of the top ten based on the above list, but it doesn't include any goalies or defensemen (except Orr), and it doesn't include any pre-expansion players. But he's probably not that far off from the top twenty either. I haven't sat down and made a list, but my ballpark guess is Forsberg might end up around 30th in terms of "best peaks".

I nearly wrote you recently to see if you could run this very thing. Wonderful.

I'd just add here that, from that list, Pete is one of the better two way players. This factor does, for me, seperate him from those behind him, and likely bumps him over Lafleur for me, just as it bumps Orr over Esposito for me, as well... and Trottier, possibly Yzerman up a few spots as well. I also put a bit of an emphasis on goals, which moves Ovie, and possibly puts Lafleur back overtop of Pete. Point being, there is more to peak play than point per game, and Pete looks solidly top 10 here, although Bourque, Potvin, Lidstrom all have arguments (I'd leave out goalies.... they are just so different to compare.... they basically ALL have more impact on a game than a single skater...... they are all specialists in terms of overall hockey ability.... hard to compare, for me anyways)



Anyways, THANK you for yet another wonderful list!I really DO feel like I'm looking at a list of the best players in my lifetime. Just what I wanted.... although i still think VsX should be to about the number 5 guy, to allow for crazy eras where two or three unusually outstanding players are competing at once...

 

[John Mandalorian]

If you have to ask, yes he’s underrated.

 

[Fantast100]

Jagr are decidedly a top 5 even a top 2 in NHL history of the points.

Even then Jagr recorded much more games than Forsberg nevertheless.

 

[Fantast100]

Jagr stats:

1733 games

Forsberg stats:

708 games

 

[Crow]

I recently posted a summary of the best players based on per-game offensive production (based on VsX, the adjusted scoring method used on the history forum - over a player's best seven years). Here are the results from (approx) 1970 onwards:

Player	Vsx PPG
Wayne Gretzky	1.93
Mario Lemieux	1.76
Phil Esposito	1.61
Bobby Orr	1.56
Jaromir Jagr	1.49
Connor McDavid	1.47
Sidney Crosby	1.45
Guy Lafleur	1.37
Peter Forsberg	1.30
Evgeni Malkin	1.29
Nikita Kucherov	1.28
Marcel Dionne	1.27
Joe Sakic	1.27
Eric Lindros	1.26
Nathan MacKinnon	1.26
Leon Draisaitl	1.24
Alex Ovechkin	1.24
Patrick Kane	1.23
Mike Bossy	1.21
Joe Thornton	1.20
Teemu Selanne	1.20
Bryan Trottier	1.20
Steve Yzerman	1.19
Adam Oates	1.17
Paul Kariya	1.15

Forsberg ranks 9th over the past (approximately) 60 years, which is very impressive.

The pro-Forsberg way to interpret this is, at his peak, and on a per game basis, although he's not quite at the McDavid, Jagr or Crosby level, he's the best out of everyone else. This is based solely on regular season point production, so it doesn't give him credit for his strong playoff performances, or his two-way play. (Both of those factors would push him farther above Dionne, for example. And you can probably argue that playoffs are a wash between Forsberg, Malkin and Kucherov, but he was pretty clearly the best two-way force on that list).

The anti-Forsberg was to interpret this - he really hasn't separated himself from Sakic, Lindros, Malkin, Kucherov and MacKinnon. Remember that most of those players have injury-plagued seasons too, and if Forsberg gets credit for "what if" partial seasons, so should everyone else. Adjusted stats are a rough approximation and nobody should be arguing that Forsberg's 1.30 is meaningfully different from Malkin's 1.29, or Kucherov's 1.28, or Sakic's 1.27. Forsberg is one of the weakest goal scorers on the list (probably behind only Orr, Thornton and Oates), so if you place a premium on goal-scoring, several players would surpass him.

Based on all this, I don't think I'd have room for Forsberg in the top twenty. He's at the low end of the top ten based on the above list, but it doesn't include any goalies or defensemen (except Orr), and it doesn't include any pre-expansion players. But he's probably not that far off from the top twenty either. I haven't sat down and made a list, but my ballpark guess is Forsberg might end up around 30th in terms of "best peaks".

Great stuff.

One question - what made you pick 7 years? That seems like more of a prime than peak analysis to me but I might not fully understand your post.

 

[KJoe88]

Don't forget Fedorov and Datsyuk.

Oh please.

 

[authentic]

I recently posted a summary of the best players based on per-game offensive production (based on VsX, the adjusted scoring method used on the history forum - over a player's best seven years). Here are the results from (approx) 1970 onwards:

Player	Vsx PPG
Wayne Gretzky	1.93
Mario Lemieux	1.76
Phil Esposito	1.61
Bobby Orr	1.56
Jaromir Jagr	1.49
Connor McDavid	1.47
Sidney Crosby	1.45
Guy Lafleur	1.37
Peter Forsberg	1.30
Evgeni Malkin	1.29
Nikita Kucherov	1.28
Marcel Dionne	1.27
Joe Sakic	1.27
Eric Lindros	1.26
Nathan MacKinnon	1.26
Leon Draisaitl	1.24
Alex Ovechkin	1.24
Patrick Kane	1.23
Mike Bossy	1.21
Joe Thornton	1.20
Teemu Selanne	1.20
Bryan Trottier	1.20
Steve Yzerman	1.19
Adam Oates	1.17
Paul Kariya	1.15

Forsberg ranks 9th over the past (approximately) 60 years, which is very impressive.

The pro-Forsberg way to interpret this is, at his peak, and on a per game basis, although he's not quite at the McDavid, Jagr or Crosby level, he's the best out of everyone else. This is based solely on regular season point production, so it doesn't give him credit for his strong playoff performances, or his two-way play. (Both of those factors would push him farther above Dionne, for example. And you can probably argue that playoffs are a wash between Forsberg, Malkin and Kucherov, but he was pretty clearly the best two-way force on that list).

The anti-Forsberg was to interpret this - he really hasn't separated himself from Sakic, Lindros, Malkin, Kucherov and MacKinnon. Remember that most of those players have injury-plagued seasons too, and if Forsberg gets credit for "what if" partial seasons, so should everyone else. Adjusted stats are a rough approximation and nobody should be arguing that Forsberg's 1.30 is meaningfully different from Malkin's 1.29, or Kucherov's 1.28, or Sakic's 1.27. Forsberg is one of the weakest goal scorers on the list (probably behind only Orr, Thornton and Oates), so if you place a premium on goal-scoring, several players would surpass him.

Based on all this, I don't think I'd have room for Forsberg in the top twenty. He's at the low end of the top ten based on the above list, but it doesn't include any goalies or defensemen (except Orr), and it doesn't include any pre-expansion players. But he's probably not that far off from the top twenty either. I haven't sat down and made a list, but my ballpark guess is Forsberg might end up around 30th in terms of "best peaks".

This basically confirms for me he is top 20 (pre-expansion is too far back to really compare in my eyes). Also in the playoffs he is a wayyy better goal scorer than those players you mention. But really I like this as it shows just how good he really was offensively, Malkin level but better defensively and physically, that’s a top 10 player in my books given how good Malkin was at his peak (I have them interchangeable at 10th for best players ever, not including guys like Shore and Morenz for obvious reasons).

 

[Staniowski]

Forsberg is generally underrated now, which usually happens to great players who have a lot of injuries.

He was a truly great player. I watched him a lot in his rookie season for the Nordiques. By the end of that season, he was close to being the best player in the league....(of course he was a 21-year-old rookie, so he wasn't that young).

A beautiful hockey player.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Great stuff.

One question - what made you pick 7 years? That seems like more of a prime than peak analysis to me but I might not fully understand your post.

There's nothing special about picking 7 years. If you have another timeframe that you want to see, let me know - it's trivial to change the parameters for that report.