Is Peter Forsberg underrated?

Has Forsberg become underrated?

  • Yes indeed

  • Maybe slightly

  • Not at all

  • He’s actually overrated


Results are only viewable after voting.

GoldenKnight

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Some of those came later in his career not his prime so my point still stands.
Nearly all were in his prime. The last of the top 10 seasons for Malkin was in 2019-20, where he was 33 years old and ended up 10th in Hart voting.

His consistency was not better than Forsbergs from season to season or in the playoffs, just go through their stats year by year and see for yourself.
I have looked, and the stats favor Malkin, as the post you are responding to showed. You can feel free to do a deeper dive, such as VsX-ppg, which is also in Malkin's favor against Forsberg (1.00 for Malkin, 0.93 for Forsberg), when comparing their 7 year primes:

 

GoldenKnight

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As @authentic writes Forsberg was more consistent, the stats are there to back it up. Forsberg also played through injuries a lot more which actually makes his ppg career numbers look worse than the level a healthy Forsberg represented. Forsberg was more consistently producing and was better defensively and physically. The only argument for Malkin is health (not that Malkin's health was very good either but still).
This post is basically false from start to finish. :laugh:

Everything you wrote about Forsberg can also be applied to the oft-injured prime Malkin as well.
 

TheGoldenJet

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As @authentic writes Forsberg was more consistent, the stats are there to back it up. Forsberg also played through injuries a lot more which actually makes his ppg career numbers look worse than the level a healthy Forsberg represented. Forsberg was more consistently producing and was better defensively and physically. The only argument for Malkin is health (not that Malkin's health was very good either but still).
What a load of rubbish.

As if other star players like Malkin don’t have their on-pace stats lowered by injuries.
 
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Toby91ca

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Oct 17, 2022
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He was an elite producer for virtually all his career (10 out of the 11 seasons when he played more than 25% of the games) while being great allround, and about his goal scoring his playoff G/G is better than Selanne, Jagr, Sakic etc.
What's your definition of elite? In the 11 seasons where he's played more than 25% of the games, he's finished top 5 in scoring 4 times, top 10 - 5 times. Top 5 in PPG 4 times and top 10 - 8 times. What are the 10 seasons you consider elite? Also his gpg in playoffs is not better than Sakic's....but that doesn't really matter much as small sample sizes in grand scheme of things can skew the numbers.

Forsberg was absolutely a beast of a player and a bit of a "what if" type guy. If he was a100% healthy, what could he have been? I don't think he demonstrated enough during the time he played to be considered as high up as some people rank him.
 

authentic

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Nearly all were in his prime. The last of the top 10 seasons for Malkin was in 2019-20, where he was 33 years old and ended up 10th in Hart voting.


I have looked, and the stats favor Malkin, as the post you are responding to showed. You can feel free to do a deeper dive, such as VsX-ppg, which is also in Malkin's favor against Forsberg (1.00 for Malkin, 0.93 for Forsberg), when comparing their 7 year primes:


Forsberg never went below a point per game, Malkin had the 37 in 43 games season, Forsberg was also never a - player during his prime in the regular season and only once during one single postseason. Yeah I’m not saying it isn’t close but consistency was on Forsbergs side while Malkin takes the peak offensive play. Overall I have these players neck and neck as Malkin was 10th on my last peak list and Forsberg was 11th. There are times where I have them switched around though and in their most dominant forms I’d be inclined to take either over Crosby or Ovechkin for a playoff run.
 
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authentic

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Also what you posted was for regular season offense only. Forsberg had better overall playoff stats despite the slightly less productive peak on a per game basis.
 

Ben White

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Dec 28, 2015
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At his peak? 100%. Better than a player like MacKinnon today who I’d probably have in my top 15. This is judging players from the 06 era and on mind you.



lol one single season and playoff run considering offense only to say Malkin was more impactful than Forsberg.
Exactly this. Considering “1 best full season” when comparing injury prone players is exactly why these discussions quickly become irrational.
 

Deas

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Feb 3, 2017
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What's your definition of elite? In the 11 seasons where he's played more than 25% of the games, he's finished top 5 in scoring 4 times, top 10 - 5 times. Top 5 in PPG 4 times and top 10 - 8 times. What are the 10 seasons you consider elite? Also his gpg in playoffs is not better than Sakic's....but that doesn't really matter much as small sample sizes in grand scheme of things can skew the numbers.

Forsberg was absolutely a beast of a player and a bit of a "what if" type guy. If he was a100% healthy, what could he have been? I don't think he demonstrated enough during the time he played to be considered as high up as some people rank him.
My definition of elite producer is top 10 in P/G (provided enough games played). He was that in 8 out of the 11 seasons in which he played more than 25% of the games. With a 10 year span between first and last top 10. Good call about 8 and not 10, got that wrong from memory.

Short answer is you’ve looked at season totals and I P/G. We could be the millionth example of delving into the what that measures compared to total numbers, if P/G tend to go up or down if playing more games in a season (about small sample sizes). With the elite players that’s not as easy to establish as some tend to assume. My post that you replied to was clear about him not being great at career totals and staying healthy.

I mixed Sakic up with someone then. Main point is Forsberg’s G/G is significantly higher in playoffs than in regular season and higher than many high end goal scorers. He was a great goal scorer too when he wanted, which matches the eye test too throughout his career.

His rank in P/G year by year.

94/95: 18
95/96: 6
96/97: 6
97/98: 2
98/99: 5
99/00: 13
00/01: 5
01/02: DNP (injuried)
02/03: 1 4.05% higher p/g Mario Lemieux
03/04: 1 20.41% higher p/g than Zigmund Palffy
04/05: DNP (lockout)
05/06: 9
06/07: 36

Retired (concerning games included in this survey) at age 34.

11 seasons included in survey.

Number of seasons as 1st: 2
Win margin span: 4.05-20.41%
Number of seasons in top 5: 5
Number of seasons in top 10: 8
Years in/outside top 10 ratio: 8/3, 72.72%
Span in years between first and last top 10: 10
 
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NordiquesForeva

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May 30, 2022
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I lived in Quebec City in the late 1980s and was raised a Nordiques fan, then transferred my allegiance to the Avalanche when they moved. So I watched the entirety of both Sakic's and Forsberg's career.

I think both players are amongst the best to ever play the game. I don't really get caught up in rankings, but in an all-time sense they should be reasonably close to one another.

I don't think there is a clear black and white answer here that everyone is looking for. Firstly, no one should dispute that Sakic had a longer and more productive, and a "greater" career than Forsberg. However, I think its fair to say that Forsberg, when available, was a more consistent performer in the regular season and playoffs - particularly in the late 1990s. Disregarding the injuries (I'll get to that later), Forsberg didn't have the "lows" that Sakic did from the season-to-season or playoff-to-playoff. But, he didn't have the "highs" that Sakic did either - Sakic had the best regular season between the two (2001), and the two best playoffs (1996 and 2001). When Sakic was able to put it all together, like he did in 1996 (most fans sleep on his 1996 regular season, which was outstanding as well) and 2001 (which was one of the most dominant full seasons in recent NHL history) he performed at a level above Forsberg's best. The issue with Sakic then, was consistency. Forsberg had the consistency in performance, but unfortunately not the availability...for long stretches of his career.

In terms of skills, Forsberg's skills were more visible and jumped off the page more than Sakic's; Forsberg was dominant with the puck, very physical, an elite passer, hungry, determined, and wanted the challenge of taking on the opposition's best defensive players. Sakic's sills were much more subtle and nuanced. You wouldn't notice Sakic, for stretches of the game, then before you knew it the puck was on and off his stick and in the back of the net. Most casual fans with a basic understanding of the game would probably notice Forsberg quicker and his play style would resonate with them more than Sakic. I just think they were very different players, and their playstyles matched their personalities. Sakic was a quiet, humble dude. The proof is in the numbers and results though, and Sakic was one of the most productive players in NHL history.

Sakic also had a clutch factor that set him apart from his peers. In the biggest games of his career, he was the best player on the ice. 2001 Cup finals, game 7, with Forsberg injured, backed by a 2nd scoring line featuring Hinote, Drury and Niemenen, and while being matched-up against by Stevens and Madden (amongst others) Sakic goes 1+2 = 3 to lead the Avs to the Cup on home ice. 2002 Olympic gold medal game, Sakic goes 2+2 = 4 and is the star amongst superstars to lead Canada to the gold medal. In one game, winner takes all the marbles, give me Sakic.

My view is that Forsberg can fairly be considered the "better" player, in the sense that he was more skilled. It depends on the observer, I think. Forsberg probably had a more unique skillset, was a more unique player, was more consistent at a high level across his career. Sakic played a lot longer, played at a higher level intermittently, rose to the occasion in big moments, and was a member of the franchise his entire career.

Overall, imo Sakic is the greatest player in Nordiques/Avalanche franchise history.
 

Ben White

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Dec 28, 2015
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I lived in Quebec City in the late 1980s and was raised a Nordiques fan, then transferred my allegiance to the Avalanche when they moved. So I watched the entirety of both Sakic's and Forsberg's career.

I think both players are amongst the best to ever play the game. I don't really get caught up in rankings, but in an all-time sense they should be reasonably close to one another.

I don't think there is a clear black and white answer here that everyone is looking for. Firstly, no one should dispute that Sakic had a longer and more productive, and a "greater" career than Forsberg. However, I think its fair to say that Forsberg, when available, was a more consistent performer in the regular season and playoffs - particularly in the late 1990s. Disregarding the injuries (I'll get to that later), Forsberg didn't have the "lows" that Sakic did from the season-to-season or playoff-to-playoff. But, he didn't have the "highs" that Sakic did either - Sakic had the best regular season between the two (2001), and the two best playoffs (1996 and 2001). When Sakic was able to put it all together, like he did in 1996 (most fans sleep on his 1996 regular season, which was outstanding as well) and 2001 (which was one of the most dominant full seasons in recent NHL history) he performed at a level above Forsberg's best. The issue with Sakic then, was consistency. Forsberg had the consistency in performance, but unfortunately not the availability...for long stretches of his career.

In terms of skills, Forsberg's skills were more visible and jumped off the page more than Sakic's; Forsberg was dominant with the puck, very physical, an elite passer, hungry, determined, and wanted the challenge of taking on the opposition's best defensive players. Sakic's sills were much more subtle and nuanced. You wouldn't notice Sakic, for stretches of the game, then before you knew it the puck was on and off his stick and in the back of the net. Most casual fans with a basic understanding of the game would probably notice Forsberg quicker and his play style would resonate with them more than Sakic. I just think they were very different players, and their playstyles matched their personalities. Sakic was a quiet, humble dude. The proof is in the numbers and results though, and Sakic was one of the most productive players in NHL history.

Sakic also had a clutch factor that set him apart from his peers. In the biggest games of his career, he was the best player on the ice. 2001 Cup finals, game 7, with Forsberg injured, backed by a 2nd scoring line featuring Hinote, Drury and Niemenen, and while being matched-up against by Stevens and Madden (amongst others) Sakic goes 1+2 = 3 to lead the Avs to the Cup on home ice. 2002 Olympic gold medal game, Sakic goes 2+2 = 4 and is the star amongst superstars to lead Canada to the gold medal. In one game, winner takes all the marbles, give me Sakic.

My view is that Forsberg can fairly be considered the "better" player, in the sense that he was more skilled. It depends on the observer, I think. Forsberg probably had a more unique skillset, was a more unique player, was more consistent at a high level across his career. Sakic played a lot longer, played at a higher level intermittently, rose to the occasion in big moments, and was a member of the franchise his entire career.

Overall, imo Sakic is the greatest player in Nordiques/Avalanche franchise history.
Again you’re mixing up quality with quantity, despite claiming otherwise. You’re saying Sakic reached a higher level at his peak than Forsberg did and pointing towards Sakic’ best full season. Let me ask you this, in which scenario do you think your best play will coincide with a healthy enough season to be considered a full season - if you have three 75+ GP seasons your entire career or if you have 13 such seasons? Forsberg’s highest level of play wasn’t in his Hart season 2003 but the start to his 2004 and 2006 seasons before injuries took the better of him, and imagine if the 2005 lockout didn’t happen. Roll the dice among Sakic seasons three times and see if you manage to catch his best season. Could happen but you could also end up with 3 mediocre seasons as Sakic’ 3 full seasons his entire career. That was the hand Forsberg was dealt. Quite a major difference. There shouldn’t be much debate who was the “better” player between the two.
 

NordiquesForeva

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Again you’re mixing up quality with quantity, despite claiming otherwise. You’re saying Sakic reached a higher level at his peak than Forsberg did and pointing towards Sakic’ best full season. Let me ask you this, in which scenario do you think your best play will coincide with a healthy enough season to be considered a full season - if you have three 75+ GP seasons your entire career or if you have 13 such seasons? Forsberg’s highest level of play wasn’t in his Hart season 2003 but his start of his 2004 and 2006 seasons before injuries took the better of him, and imagine if the 2005 didn’t happen. Roll the dice among Sakic seasons three times and see if you manage to catch his best season. Could happen but you could also end up with 3 mediocre seasons as Sakic’ 3 full seasons his entire career. That was the hand Forsberg was dealt. Quite a major difference. There shouldn’t be much debate who was the “better” player between the two.

The first part of the sentence is a false premise, and the second part of the sentence is wrong. And the rest doesn't make any sense honestly. Your argument rests in hypotheticals and not in reality.
 
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daver

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Again you’re mixing up quality with quantity, despite claiming otherwise. You’re saying Sakic reached a higher level at his peak than Forsberg did and pointing towards Sakic’ best full season. Let me ask you this, in which scenario do you think your best play will coincide with a healthy enough season to be considered a full season - if you have three 75+ GP seasons your entire career or if you have 13 such seasons? Forsberg’s highest level of play wasn’t in his Hart season 2003 but the start to his 2004 and 2006 seasons before injuries took the better of him, and imagine if the 2005 lockout didn’t happen. Roll the dice among Sakic seasons three times and see if you manage to catch his best season. Could happen but you could also end up with 3 mediocre seasons as Sakic’ 3 full seasons his entire career. That was the hand Forsberg was dealt. Quite a major difference. There shouldn’t be much debate who was the “better” player between the two.

He played 9 games before injury in 03/04. Are you saying his peak was a 9 game stretch?

And he played 21 games in 05/06 and was tied with Spezza and Alfredsson in PPG before injury. Are you saying that peak Forsberg = peak Spezza and Afredsson?

Have you gone through Sakic's best 9 game and 21 game stretches to figure out his "Peak" level of play.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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I lived in Quebec City in the late 1980s and was raised a Nordiques fan, then transferred my allegiance to the Avalanche when they moved. So I watched the entirety of both Sakic's and Forsberg's career.

I think both players are amongst the best to ever play the game. I don't really get caught up in rankings, but in an all-time sense they should be reasonably close to one another.

I don't think there is a clear black and white answer here that everyone is looking for. Firstly, no one should dispute that Sakic had a longer and more productive, and a "greater" career than Forsberg. However, I think its fair to say that Forsberg, when available, was a more consistent performer in the regular season and playoffs - particularly in the late 1990s. Disregarding the injuries (I'll get to that later), Forsberg didn't have the "lows" that Sakic did from the season-to-season or playoff-to-playoff. But, he didn't have the "highs" that Sakic did either - Sakic had the best regular season between the two (2001), and the two best playoffs (1996 and 2001). When Sakic was able to put it all together, like he did in 1996 (most fans sleep on his 1996 regular season, which was outstanding as well) and 2001 (which was one of the most dominant full seasons in recent NHL history) he performed at a level above Forsberg's best. The issue with Sakic then, was consistency. Forsberg had the consistency in performance, but unfortunately not the availability...for long stretches of his career.

In terms of skills, Forsberg's skills were more visible and jumped off the page more than Sakic's; Forsberg was dominant with the puck, very physical, an elite passer, hungry, determined, and wanted the challenge of taking on the opposition's best defensive players. Sakic's sills were much more subtle and nuanced. You wouldn't notice Sakic, for stretches of the game, then before you knew it the puck was on and off his stick and in the back of the net. Most casual fans with a basic understanding of the game would probably notice Forsberg quicker and his play style would resonate with them more than Sakic. I just think they were very different players, and their playstyles matched their personalities. Sakic was a quiet, humble dude. The proof is in the numbers and results though, and Sakic was one of the most productive players in NHL history.

Sakic also had a clutch factor that set him apart from his peers. In the biggest games of his career, he was the best player on the ice. 2001 Cup finals, game 7, with Forsberg injured, backed by a 2nd scoring line featuring Hinote, Drury and Niemenen, and while being matched-up against by Stevens and Madden (amongst others) Sakic goes 1+2 = 3 to lead the Avs to the Cup on home ice. 2002 Olympic gold medal game, Sakic goes 2+2 = 4 and is the star amongst superstars to lead Canada to the gold medal. In one game, winner takes all the marbles, give me Sakic.

My view is that Forsberg can fairly be considered the "better" player, in the sense that he was more skilled. It depends on the observer, I think. Forsberg probably had a more unique skillset, was a more unique player, was more consistent at a high level across his career. Sakic played a lot longer, played at a higher level intermittently, rose to the occasion in big moments, and was a member of the franchise his entire career.

Overall, imo Sakic is the greatest player in Nordiques/Avalanche franchise history.
This is a very good, balanced summary. I agree with it pretty much word for word (aside from the part about a Nordiques fan!)
 

GoldenKnight

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Forsberg never went below a point per game, Malkin had the 37 in 43 games season
Prime Forsberg was also not moved to wing on a line with Jordan Staal, which is where an injury riddled Malkin was deployed that half-season.

One must take these things in context.

Also what you posted was for regular season offense only. Forsberg had better overall playoff stats despite the slightly less productive peak on a per game basis.
You can look at MVP voting totals as well, which objectively look at more than just offensive production. Prime Malkin has prime Forsberg beat in that category as well.
 

Xspyrit

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8th best PPG of all time

Sure he didn't play a lot in his 30's so he doesn't have the benefit of the doubt about being able to keep a good production while aging (but we saw 14 pts in 9 games at 34 y/o after a lot of injuries)

What makes this even better is that he mostly played in the DPE (dead puck era).

But it's not only production, he was a selke level forward and high impact player all over the ice, a true legend.

This guy is very underrated, I don't see him ranked high in all-time list even though he should
 
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daver

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Malkin Top Ten point finishes: 1, 1, 2, 3

Malkin PPG finishes (min. 1/2 season): 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8


Forsberg Top Ten point finishes (no Mario): 1, 2, 4, 4, 9

Forsberg PPG finishes (min. 1/2 season, no Mario): 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 5, 5, 9


Remove the duplicates:

Malkin Top Ten point finishes: 1, 3

Malkin PPG finishes (min. 1/2 season): 2, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8


Forsberg Top Ten point finishes (no Mario): 4, 4, 9

Forsberg PPG finishes (min. 1/2 season, no Mario): 1, 5, 5, 9



8th best PPG of all time

137th in points of all time.

Which biased stat should we go with?
 
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Ben White

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Dec 28, 2015
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He played 9 games before injury in 03/04. Are you saying his peak was a 9 game stretch?

And he played 21 games in 05/06 and was tied with Spezza and Alfredsson in PPG before injury. Are you saying that peak Forsberg = peak Spezza and Afredsson?

Have you gone through Sakic's best 9 game and 21 game stretches to figure out his "Peak" level of play.
The difference is, Forsberg consistently performed on that level more or less when he was playing healthy, Sakic wasn’t.

Malkin Top Ten point finishes: 1, 1, 2, 3

Malkin PPG finishes (min. 1/2 season): 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8


Forsberg Top Ten point finishes (no Mario): 1, 2, 4, 4, 9

Forsberg PPG finishes (min. 1/2 season, no Mario): 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 5, 5, 9


Remove the duplicates:

Malkin Top Ten point finishes: 1, 3

Malkin PPG finishes (min. 1/2 season): 2, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8


Forsberg Top Ten point finishes (no Mario): 4, 4, 9

Forsberg PPG finishes (min. 1/2 season, no Mario): 1, 5, 5, 9





137th in points of all time.

Which biased stat should we go with?
Again, finishes are irrelevant when evaluating a player who hardly finished any seasons in that sense his entire career.
 

Ben White

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Dec 28, 2015
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Prime Forsberg was also not moved to wing on a line with Jordan Staal, which is where an injury riddled Malkin was deployed that half-season.

One must take these things in context.


You can look at MVP voting totals as well, which objectively look at more than just offensive production. Prime Malkin has prime Forsberg beat in that category as well.
MVP votings are completely irrelevant when evaluating a player who only had three 75+ games played seasons his entire career. And you can’t even take for granted that those three seasons coincided with his highest level of play. Remarkably enough Forsberg managed to be voted 1st team all star 3 times aka best center in the league (one of those he only played 72 games).
 

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