Is Peter Forsberg underrated?

[daver]

Forsberg drew the top defensive pairings in the playoffs, not Sakic. I think that says it all.

Didn't Sakic draw the other team's #1 line? It was more of a 1A/1B situation unlike Crosby/Malkin or McDavid/Draisaitl where Malkin and Draisaitl face easier matchups.

Linemates can be a factor too but I don't think that's relevant as both Sakic and Forsberg had very good linemates throughout their shared prime.

 

[Hallonbroder]

Didn't Sakic draw the other team's #1 line? It was more of a 1A/1B situation unlike Crosby/Malkin or McDavid/Draisaitl where Malkin and Draisaitl face easier matchups.

Linemates can be a factor too but I don't think that's relevant as both Sakic and Forsberg had very good linemates throughout their shared prime.

Nope, I’ve seen this brought up elsewhere and Forsberg was the focus for other teams 5v5. Also, didn’t Forsberg make guys like Gagne and Hejduk Rocket-contenders? Don’t know the stats for Sakic teammates really, but I let you and other fill me in on that

 

[daver]

Nope, I’ve seen this brought up elsewhere and Forsberg was the focus for other teams 5v5. Also, didn’t Forsberg make guys like Gagne and Hejduk Rocket-contenders? Don’t know the stats for Sakic teammates really, but I let you and other fill me in on that

In the face of this compelling evidence, I withdraw my comment.

 

[Hallonbroder]

In the face of this compelling evidence, I withdraw my comment.

I mean, it’s been mentioned in avs and for example red wings forums before, but it would take a while to find.. Feels like you’re set in your mind though.

 

[daver]

I mean, it’s been mentioned in avs and for example red wings forums before, but it would take a while to find.. Feels like you’re set in your mind though.

The general comment is that Forsberg faced the tougher defensive matchups while Sakic was matched up against the other team's #1 line.

I can buy a "healthy" Forsberg was slightly better than Sakic the same way that I can buy a "healthy, peak" Malkin was as good as Crosby but that you need to qualify a comparison with "healthy" is too much to ignore.

 

[Ben White]

I’d rather just look at peak than best. Best ability is far too subjective to have any importance to me. Theoretically they should have shown their best ability at their peak.

It does, best ability is basically what said player showed at his peak and consistent enough to not be considered a hot streak. It’s just that “highest ability” disqualifies all those stupid arguments which confuses best peak with best peak seasons and what not.

 

[daver]

It does, best ability is basically what said player showed at his peak and consistent enough to not be considered a bot streak. It’s just that “highest ability” disqualifies all those stupid arguments which confuses best peak with best peak seasons and what not.

You may want to look at this thread which tries to identify the absolute best stretches of hockey since the Wayne/Mario era.

Thoughts on Crosby's completely cherry-picked best stretch of hockey

Inspired by the Best 82 game stretch thread, this is Crosby's best stretch of hockey which took place between Nov. 28, 2009 (after shaking off his Cup hangover) to Nov. 8, 2014 (before a viral illness kicked in). NHL Stats Despite playing 42% less games than the scoring leader during this...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Ben White]

You may want to look at this thread which tries to identify the absolute best stretches of hockey since the Wayne/Mario era.

Thoughts on Crosby's completely cherry-picked best stretch of hockey

Inspired by the Best 82 game stretch thread, this is Crosby's best stretch of hockey which took place between Nov. 28, 2009 (after shaking off his Cup hangover) to Nov. 8, 2014 (before a viral illness kicked in). NHL Stats Despite playing 42% less games than the scoring leader during this...

forums.hfboards.com

Good stuff

 

[sr edler]

Even if that were true in Canada, it's more than made up for by internationalization of the sport.

There's been no internationalisation of the sport. Kopitar, Josi and Draisaitl (a few number of players from a few Central European countries) are neutralised by the Czechs are Slovaks (particularly the latter ones) having smaller outputs.

Yes, the Americans look somewhat (?) better now on paper but that's mostly because Canada is worse overall in comparison, plus arguably their biggest name (Matthews) is suspect as hell in the playoffs.

 

[sr edler]

Forsberg and Bure are 2 of the most overrated players on the site.

Don't forget Fedorov and Datsyuk.

Those damn Euro 90s/early 00s forwards, always so overrated, must be something in the water over there.

 

[Midnight Judges]

There's been no internationalisation of the sport.

The NHL used to be almost 100% Canadian. In the early part of Gretzky's career it was about 80% Canadian. Now it is less than 42% Canadian.

Data Dump: The rise of US NHL players - Sound Of Hockey

The US hockey players continue to make up a larger and larger percentage of the NHL players in the league. Here is a deep dive on the topic.

soundofhockey.com

 

[sr edler]

The NHL used to be almost 100% Canadian.

Thread is about Forsberg and the 90s.

 

[sr edler]

Most overrated players are probably some Canadian players who were picked 1st overall and had a press following from their mid-teens, but then never hit that next-level status in the big leagues. I'm thinking guys like Marc-André Fleury, John Tavares, Steven Stamkos, or Vinny Lecavalier.

 

[MXD]

49th all time? ... I think that's in the range.

 

[Video Nasty]

Most overrated players are probably some Canadian players who were picked 1st overall and had a press following from their mid-teens, but then never hit that next-level status in the big leagues. I'm thinking guys like Marc-André Fleury, John Tavares, Steven Stamkos, or Vinny Lecavalier.

Stamkos was 1, 2, 1, 2 in goals and 5, 5, 2, 2 in points over the course of four consecutive seasons and led the league in goals and points through sixteen games the next season before breaking his leg. He authored a 60 goal season for a team that scored a total of 235 goals, which ranked ninth in the league, but would be bottom six last season. His trajectory was very clearly altered, and to say he never hit next level status is monstrously false. He very clearly hit a level that the others didn’t, as soon as his sophomore season, and maintained it longer. He does not belong in your list.

 

[MXD]

Most overrated players are probably some Canadian players who were picked 1st overall and had a press following from their mid-teens, but then never hit that next-level status in the big leagues. I'm thinking guys like Marc-André Fleury, John Tavares, Steven Stamkos, or Vinny Lecavalier.

.. Huh? Which level was he supposed to hit? Stamkos has more Top-5 goalscoring finishes than Brett Hull and would probably have 6 straight Top-2 goalscoring finishes without his pretty gruesome injury, something Hull himself never came very close to achieve. While Hull probably has an overall edge due to peak, prime longevity (I'm taking for granted that Stamkos is post-prime, which may be a mistake), longevity per se and playoffs, they can't be THAT far from each other... And I don't think Stamkos was projected to be better than Brett Hull.

EDIT : Even as it is, Stamkos has four straight Top-2 goalscoring finishes. On top of my head, only Gretzky, Bossy, Ovechkin, Lafleur, Esposito, Richard and Howe achieved this, the last three in completely different contexts.

 

[daver]

Those damn Euro 90s/early 00s forwards, always so overrated, must be something in the water over there.

Forsberg and Bure get overrated when they are given credit for things they did not do due to injuries and these things can include levels of play above what they actually reached. There is something about unfulfilled careers that gets people's imagination going.

Federov and Datyusk get overrated when their Selke wins get added to their Hart finishes when it is obvious that their Hart finishes were the product of them winning the Selke.

 

[Albatros]

Federov and Datyusk get overrated when their Selke wins get added to their Hart finishes when it is obvious that their Hart finishes were the product of them winning the Selke.

Fedorov was the best offensive player as well and should have won even if you ignore the Selke aspect entirely.

 

[Regal]

Forsberg and Bure get overrated when they are given credit for things they did not do due to injuries and these things can include levels of play above what they actually reached. There is something about unfulfilled careers that gets people's imagination going.

Federov and Datyusk get overrated when their Selke wins get added to their Hart finishes when it is obvious that their Hart finishes were the product of them winning the Selke.

Can’t forget the excitement factor. These are all players who were some of the most noticeable players on the ice. Same thing happens to exciting Canadian players like Lindros as well.

 

[daver]

Fedorov was the best offensive player as well and should have won even if you ignore the Selke aspect entirely.

He didn't win the Art Ross and was 3rd in goals on a offensive powerhouse with superstar talent. Remove the Selke and likely Gilmour gives him a run for the Hart.

 

[Muffin]

IMO he's underrated because he could never stay healthy. In terms of actual ability he should be higher on the list.

 

[Albatros]

He didn't win the Art Ross and was 3rd in goals on a offensive powerhouse with superstar talent. Remove the Selke and likely Gilmour gives him a run for the Hart.

Gretzky (38+92=130) won the Art Ross just ahead of Fedorov (56+64=120) and got 0 Hart votes. That means 0 even third place votes. Gilmour's (27+84=111) votes relied on his defensive play at least as much as Fedorov's.

 

[daver]

Gretzky (38+92=130) won the Art Ross just ahead of Fedorov (56+64=120) and got 0 Hart votes. That means 0 even third place votes.

Usually the Art Ross winner is considered to have had the best offensive season.

Gilmour's (27+84=111) votes relied on his defensive play at least as much as Fedorov's.

And also how much he contributed to the Leafs offense. He had considerably less support than Federov; a big consideration in Hart voting.

Anyways, it was a great season by Federov but not a the level the narrative of "He won the Hart AND the Selke" would suggest.