Is Ovechkin the 5th best player of all time?

[max21]

Did I really just read Bergeron over Ovechkin

 

[pi314]

I have seen Ovechkin cherry pick for empty stats more than any 10 players combined.

There is a reason his game doesn’t translate to winning.

All time great? Sure.

But I can think of dozens of guys who will be rated below him by most who would be way better in a must win game 7.

Lidstrom, Sakic, Yzerman, Forsberg, etc.

 

[WarriorofTime]

You're just re-enforcing bad logic/player assessment though.

Your "guy wins art ross by 1 point vs loses by 1 point" argument....well, let's look no further then last season.

For me - both Kucherov and MacKinnon had historic peak seasons last year. Kucherov 140 and 144 points - tremendous. MacKinnon's season isn't worthless because he lost the Ross by 4, even ignoring the hart. To me - both seasons are very comparable, and add an ~ equal amount to each player's resume. They're both great seasons because they outscored the pack, guys like Panarin, Pastrnak etc by very big margins.

Ignoring the hart - MacKinnon's season last year is >>> Jamie Benn's season where he won the Ross.

So no - +/- 1 goal for Ovechkin, or +/- 1 point in a season shouldn't be a big deal.

Ovechkin's resume is extremely strong overall. I don't personally think he's #5 all time (I have him around 10th), but if someone values goal-scoring and longevity a lot, they might have him 5th. Scoring an extra career goal or two or 20 career-wise shouldn't affect his rank.

Well sure, if someone had so extreme a point of view as "893 goals = he stinks, 895 goals = he's the greatest" that would be quite silly indeed.

To say there's nothing significant about being Number 1.... in any scenario, being Number 1 is significant. Out of everyone in the League, in a given season or all time, you were the one that did something the most. That's a big deal. I see a big movement to try and de-emphasize and downplay it, why, I'm not so sure. But it's a hyper focus on incrementalist impact over the big picture significance that starts from Goal #1 of Ovechkin's career, not Marginal Goals 864-895.

Aside, the marginal goals probably deserve more credit than given. Having 19 points in 15 games at Age 39 is incredibly impressive. Even at this current number, most 39 year olds aren't going to be able to limp out 30 more goals. The marginal impact really does speak to how difficult a record like this is to break and how impressive it will be if it happens.

What that means for a perceived "master ranking" of players... all of this is subjective stuff at the end of the day. People talk like it's so dogmatic. It's the stuff of bar debates and online discussions, it's not so serious. So it can mean a different thing for different people. Understand that for you, the focus on marginal impact of a 1st or 2nd in various contexts is essentially just the marginal impact of the difference itself, the same as it would be if someone scored 27 or 28 goals in a season. Your perspective is understood and valid.

 

[max21]

I have seen Ovechkin cherry pick for empty stats more than any 10 players combined.

There is a reason his game doesn’t translate to winning.

All time great? Sure.

But I can think of dozens of guys who will be rated below him by most who would be way better in a must win game 7.

Lidstrom, Sakic, Yzerman, Forsberg, etc.

In the last 15 years the Capitals are 4th in winning % in the NHL with a Stanley cup (Vegas is above them, so take that as you will) Please dont say he’s not a playoff performer either.

 

[pi314]

In the last 15 years the Capitals are 4th in winning % in the NHL with a Stanley cup (Vegas is above them, so take that as you will) Please dont say he’s not a playoff performer either.

Now do playoffs.

I can show you exactly where Ovechkin cost his team those games if you like.

But tell me about points.

 

[max21]

Now do playoffs.

I can show you exactly where Ovechkin cost his team those games if you like.

But tell me about points.

Let’s hear it

 

[winnipegger]

It's completely reasonable to put the greatest goal scorer of all time (the hardest thing to do in hockey) at #5. Come at me bro

 

[CanadianSniper]

No. Gretz, Lemiuex, Orr, Howe, Crosby all comfortably ahead. McDavid will be ahead as well, he probably ends up in the top 5 eventually.

 

[wetcoast]

It's completely reasonable to put the greatest goal scorer of all time (the hardest thing to do in hockey) at #5. Come at me bro

Well if that's the argument then it fails as that's 2 separate things.

Or maybe 10% of the voters are right here......I don't think so and the case just doesn't stand up when examined closely.

 

[McPoyle]

No, McDavid is.

 

[winnipegger]

Well if that's the argument then it fails as that's 2 separate things.

Or maybe 10% of the voters are right here......I don't think so and the case just doesn't stand up when examined closely.

Almost 3% of voters think Ovechkin belongs in the top 4, let's forget about my opinion and instead lambaste that one.

 

[Praetorian Caps]

Bloody hail, maybe it's because I'm a newbie to the sport, but saying the guy who's on pace to have the most goals in the entire league's history is not even in the discussion as one of top 5, all time players, seems bollocks to me?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Crosby is the much better defensive forward and ranked ahead of ovie in all time lists. Add in the fact ovie has underwhelmed in international tournaments and Crosby has won everything.

Crosby lifetime +/- to date = +213
Ovechkin lifetime +/- to date = +54

Let's also remember here that Ovechkin has had much better on ice teammates and better goaltending for his career.

 

[centipede2233]

Let's also remember here that Ovechkin has had much better on ice teammates and better goaltending for his career.

That is true. Both are great, I think when it’s all said and done, imho it’ll be the big 4, mcdavid then Crosby then Ovechkin to round out the big 7. There is merit if you want hasek in their somewhere.

 

[Ben White]

Not even top 10

 

[Ben White]

Players that are/were better than him only from the 80’s and onwards:

Gretzky
Lemieux
McDavid
Crosby
Bourque
Lidstrom
Jagr
Forsberg
Makarov
Fetisov
Bure
Fedorov

 

[Finnen]

Top 10.

At least:



Maybe:

 

[Midnight Judges]

Let's also remember here that Ovechkin has had much better on ice teammates and better goaltending for his career.

That is total gibberish. Malkin is a top 30 ish player of all time - and yes, they have played a ton together over the years with Malkin sometimes factoring in on 50 of Crosby's points in a single season. Letang and Marc Andre Fleury are hall of famers.

The pens without Crosby have a far superior record to the Capitals without Ovechkin.

The Capitals have never had a second line that occupies top defensive pairings away from Ovechkin. Virtually no team pulls their best defense pairing for Malkin in order to save it for Crosby. Although Pens fans do claim that did happen once upon a time in a playoff series 15 years ago and we've been hearing about it ever since. Ovechkin's entire career has been that way.

 

[JAK]

People penciling McDavid is hilarious, he's one bad hit away from being a what if.

Ovechkin is a prolific scorer and competitor. But in an all time draft, would he even be drafted ahead of, say, Lidstrom?

 

[wetcoast]

Almost 3% of voters think Ovechkin belongs in the top 4, let's forget about my opinion and instead lambaste that one.

Sure you can get 10% of people to say no i don't think the sun really rises in the east and sets in the west so what's your point exactly?

You don't really have one that stands up well at all.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

That is total gibberish. Malkin is a top 30 ish player of all time - and yes, they have played a ton together over the years with Malkin sometimes factoring in on 50 of Crosby's points in a single season. Letang and Marc Andre Fleury are hall of famers.

The pens without Crosby have a far superior record to the Capitals without Ovechkin.

The Capitals have never had a second line that occupies top defensive pairings away from Ovechkin. Virtually no team pulls their best defense pairing for Malkin in order to save it for Crosby. Although Pens fans do claim that did happen once upon a time in a playoff series 15 years ago and we've been hearing about it ever since. Ovechkin's entire career has been that way.

This seems to be a fantasy hockey way of evaluating teams. A franchise needs to be assessed by its on-ice results. It doesn't matter which club has more Hall of Famers.

Here are the goal ratios (ie goals scored divided by goals against) for Pittsburgh and Washington, at five on five, when Crosby and Ovechkin are off the ice:

YEAR	PIT	WAS
2008​	1.03	0.78
2009​	1.18	1.04
2010​	0.90	1.30
2011​	1.00	0.98
2012​	1.07	1.03
2013​	1.05	1.02
2014​	0.88	1.10
2015​	1.01	1.11
2016​	1.13	1.12
2017​	1.16	1.72
2018​	0.93	1.04
2019​	0.93	1.18
2020​	1.12	1.21
2021​	1.25	1.21
2022​	1.05	1.10
Average	1.05	1.13

On average, the Capitals (without Ovechkin) had a better goal differential than the Penguins (without Crosby). Granted, it's pretty close, but this is why it's important not to look at things through the lens of fantasy draft. Even though the Penguins had Malkin (and two other potential HOF'ers), that didn't translate into an environment that was more conducive to outscoring their opponent.

Note - the data above is only for 2008 to 2022. Someone else can dig up the stats for the other years if they want (I had this data already saved). Given that both teams missed the playoffs in three of these four years, it's hard to imagine that it would meaningfully change the conclusion.

Plus/minus has its limitations, obviously. But Crosby going +212 (compared to Ovechkin going +55), on a team that was (slightly) less successful at outscoring its opponents, is impressive. (This argument shouldn't be over-emphasized, as there are plenty of things that should be considered in evaluating their careers, but it can't be denied that Crosby was substantially more effective at driving his team's results at five-on-five).

 

[winnipegger]

People penciling McDavid is hilarious, he's one bad hit away from being a what if.

Ovechkin is a prolific scorer and competitor. But in an all time draft, would he even be drafted ahead of, say, Lidstrom?

Totally depends on what your team needs are. If you had a legit #1D already you would take the best goal scorer of all time surely.

 

[Fataldogg]

He is in my top-10. Closer to 5 than to 10.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

That is total gibberish. Malkin is a top 30 ish player of all time - and yes, they have played a ton together over the years with Malkin sometimes factoring in on 50 of Crosby's points in a single season. Letang and Marc Andre Fleury are hall of famers.

The pens without Crosby have a far superior record to the Capitals without Ovechkin.

The Capitals have never had a second line that occupies top defensive pairings away from Ovechkin. Virtually no team pulls their best defense pairing for Malkin in order to save it for Crosby. Although Pens fans do claim that did happen once upon a time in a playoff series 15 years ago and we've been hearing about it ever since. Ovechkin's entire career has been that way.

Try again. You didn't address my post, instead you copy pasted what you've been posting for years. Your first sentence was pretty accurate though.

 

[Midnight Judges]

This seems to be a fantasy hockey way of evaluating teams. A franchise needs to be assessed by its on-ice results. It doesn't matter which club has more Hall of Famers.

Here are the goal ratios (ie goals scored divided by goals against) for Pittsburgh and Washington, at five on five, when Crosby and Ovechkin are off the ice:

YEAR	PIT	WAS
2008​	1.03	0.78
2009​	1.18	1.04
2010​	0.90	1.30
2011​	1.00	0.98
2012​	1.07	1.03
2013​	1.05	1.02
2014​	0.88	1.10
2015​	1.01	1.11
2016​	1.13	1.12
2017​	1.16	1.72
2018​	0.93	1.04
2019​	0.93	1.18
2020​	1.12	1.21
2021​	1.25	1.21
2022​	1.05	1.10
Average	1.05	1.13

On average, the Capitals (without Ovechkin) had a better goal differential than the Penguins (without Crosby).

Three problems with your point here:

1) Your stats disregard 30 some percent of all scoring. It's a fairly common way of detracting from one of the best powerplay players and the greatest powerplay goal scorer of all time.

2) The Pens likely have the upper hand in terms of goal differential in the seasons you've not included. They certainly have it as a team as a whole.

3) Ovechkin is always going to have tougher match-ups than Crosby because the Capitals have generally never had a second line that would occupy anywhere near as much attention as Ovechkin's line. Whereas for the Pens, Crosby is typically going to split time against the opposition's top D pairing or shut down lines with Malkin.

Note - the data above is only for 2008 to 2022. Someone else can dig up the stats for the other years if they want (I had this data already saved). Given that both teams missed the playoffs in three of these four years, it's hard to imagine that it would meaningfully change the conclusion.

You just made a post to suggest it's not wins and losses that matter, but goal differential at 5v5 only. But you rely on wins and losses here (which is a proxy for making the playoffs). Personally, I'm not a big believer in WOWY stats because there are too many other factors that amount to important context.