Is Ovechkin the 5th best player of all time?

[Sol]

You old geezers love the other old geezers way too much.

 

[Midnight Judges]

What years are you using here I did 4 searches from 57-58 season to the 70-71 to 71-72 season and nowhere does Jean end up in 6th and from 57-58 to 70-71 he is a very solid 3rd behind Howe and Hull but basically on par with PPG over that long period.

Also in each players respective time periods that you mention Jean has 6 top 5 Hart finishes and Ovi has 2.

You can go from '58 or '59 to '71 and Beliveau is 5th in points and 6th and 7th in goals:

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Whereas post peak Ovechkin is 3rd in points and first in goals by miles.

But again, that's "strong" and "elite" from Beliveau, but "nothing of note" for Ovechkin.

 

[SkinsFan09]

Crosby is the much better defensive forward and ranked ahead of ovie in all time lists. Add in the fact ovie has underwhelmed in international tournaments and Crosby has won everything.

Crosby lifetime +/- to date = +213
Ovechkin lifetime +/- to date = +54

They have played 70 games against each other with Sid having a record of 41-25-4 in the regular season and 13-12 in the playoffs.

OV has 37G-30A-67Pts
Sid has 31G-60A-91Pts

Sid has been the better player head to head, but I'm sure certain posters would attribute that to teammates and not Sid.

Through the 2022-23 season, the Penguins were 121-64-28 without Crosby, with a +60 goal differential; the Capitals were 24-28-4 without Ovechkin, with a -18 differential.

While I do believe Crosby is the better player, he's also had more help around him (another MVP caliber center helps)

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Yes meant *9 (howe) and typed 8 by error

Lidstrom had 7 norries but thats only O think 2 more than RB. Bourque was top 5 for nearly 20+ years as a D-man. Elite on both ends of the ice

He would need to be above Lidstrom due to his whole career long being his prime

Harvey won 7 norrises as well I think so he should be right there with Lidstrom, though I doubt many have seen him play (including myself)

Hasek also cany be forgotten. 6 vezina's, 2 harts, 2 lindsays. He has the best 6-year peak+prime for a goalie ever and top 5 or 6 ever for a player. Lack of longevity stops him from being in the big 4 tier.

Then Bobby Hull was basically the OV of his generation so he should be somewhere in the 5 to 12 range

You make a good argument, I just have no real basis to express an opinion on Bourque or Harvey since they were from before my time. As for Hasek, I have no idea how to compare goalies versus players.

Bobby Hull is another tough one, as I feel hockey in the 60s is too different from modern hockey, and he wasn’t the clear GOAT of that time unlike Howe.

I can see the Ovi comparisons in the fact that they terrorized goalies over their entire careers, but Ovi did it in the era of advanced scouting, technology and training.

 

[Ignatius]

5 is McDavids spot

#5 best Oilers player

 

[ITM]

No. The Top 5 are:

1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Lemieux
4. Howe
5. Hasek

In the same context that I would put Hasek ahead of Ovechkin, I would put Ken Dryden ahead of Hasek. Why?

Well Dryden won a Conn Smythe before he won a Calder. He took a year off, came back. Won six Vezinas (Same as Hasek) but didn't in 8 years. Is tied with Hasek for all-time best sv%. Won six Cups as opposed to two. Sure the team in front of him (i.e. Dryden as it did with Hasek) mattered, but its interesting they (the Canadiens) stopped winning Cups after Dryden left.

But not really sure I'd put either at #5. Top 10 in a mixed Top 10 (the way it probably should be)...I think there's a case, for sure.

 

[SkinsFan09]

The hardest thing to do is win the SC not score goals.

The thing is that if one buys into the goal argument there is an assumption that all of the other greats of all time were are focused and tailored their game on scoring goals solely as much as Ovi does and that's not the case.

Nels Stewart and Maurice Richard weren't considered the best players of all time when they took over the NHL goals record...well maybe Richard had a bit of a case but it was more for the myth of Richard than the actual players overall accomplishments.

Ovi is a top 10ish to 15ish player of all time even if one considers him the bestish goal scorers of all time, which I have him as from about 5 seasons ago or so.

I think you could get him as high as bottom of the top 10 to as low as 15th agree. Not top 5 and there's no shade in that.

 

[wetcoast]

lol what does this even mean

Since 59-60 every player in the top 32 in goals has a better shooting % except a couple of players we don't have complete records for.

 

[nowhereman]

I have Crosby at #5. But OV is in my top 10. I don't see how you can rank Hull and Richard ahead of him, at this point.

 

[Video Nasty]

No, but I suspected this nonsense would begin when Gretzky’s record was within sight.

 

[wetcoast]

You can go from '58 or '59 to '71 and Beliveau is 5th in points and 6th and 7th in goals:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Whereas post peak Ovechkin is 3rd in points and first in goals by miles.

But again, that's "strong" and "elite" from Beliveau, but "nothing of note" for Ovechkin.

This is an all time argument not some selective seasons and like I noted games played comes into play here as well and I noticed that you totally glossed over each player top 5 Hart finishes over that same epriod of time.

People making these rankings don't just look at cherry picked metrics but the whole complete picture.

 

[Fantomas]

Since 59-60 every player in the top 32 in goals has a better shooting % except a couple of players we don't have complete records for.

Who cares

 

[wetcoast]

Through the 2022-23 season, the Penguins were 121-64-28 without Crosby, with a +60 goal differential; the Capitals were 24-28-4 without Ovechkin, with a -18 differential.

While I do believe Crosby is the better player, he's also had more help around him (another MVP caliber center helps)

Sure that's great if the argument was something else but their individual performances show which player was better in h2h games right?

OV has 37G-30A-67Pts
Sid has 31G-60A-91Pts

 

[hockey4sale]

30years from now many young fans would have no idea who is Crosby but Ovi’s name would stay immortal, holding all time goal scoring record is HUGE deal, Ovi has been 50goal scorer for almost 20years, NHL may not see another scorer with such consistency and durability for next 100yearz

 

[wetcoast]

Who cares

Who cares about anything?

The argument was that Ovi was...let me get the quote

Essentially the greatest goal scorer in every conceivable metric

So maybe you don't care about facts but most people when ranking players make a fair assessment across all players and then those rankings and statements have to survive critical anyaslsis.

Right?

 

[WarriorofTime]

The hardest thing to do is win the SC not score goals.

Since 59-60 every player in the top 32 in goals has a better shooting % except a couple of players we don't have complete records for.

Fairly desperate even for your standards here.

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Look at 2010-11 through 2017-18 in particular rank in terms of SV%. All Top 10. Six other seasons in the Top 23.

Look at Ovechkin's game and role on the Powerplay (which was a top one in the league for most of his career without any other all time greats alongside Ovechkin). He played in the era of big pads, monster save percentages across the League and still averaged 50 for 17 years and zoomed passed a bunch of guys that played in the 80s.

I suppose we're in "a lot of players could have scored 900, they just chose not to because they were too busy #Sacrificing and #Winning" territory

 

[Fantomas]

Who cares about anything?

The argument was that Ovi was...let me get the quote



So maybe you don't care about facts but most people when ranking players make a fair assessment across all players and then those rankings and statements have to survive critical anyaslsis.

Right?

You're such a weirdo, it's honestly stunning.

Shooting percentage is not a metric anyone with an ounce of intelligence has used to assess goalscoring. It's truly bizarre you would even bring it up.

No one has ever looked at a boxscore and said, "yeah, team A won this game, but imagine if they won it while taking fewer shots."

 

[wetcoast]

Fairly desperate even for your standards here.

NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com

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Look at 2010-11 through 2017-18 in particular rank in terms of SV%

Look at Ovechkin's game and role on the Powerplay (which was a top one in the league for most of his career without any other all time greats alongside Ovechkin).

I suppose we're in "a lot of players could have scored 900, they just chose not to because they were too busy #Sacrificing and #Winning" territory

I know all about league averages and didn't make the original claim, just fact checked it but turns out a couple of people are sensitive to facts around here eh?

I looked up that time frame 1st in golas was Ovi with a 12.4 shooting % and lots of guys had a higher % as well but Ovi was first in SOG by a wide margin.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

The bottom line is that outside of his prime no player in the top 50 all time off the top of my head had a more goal scoring focus and change in his scoring ratio than Ovi did or if one want to be more blunt, he became more of a volume shooter versus his more dominant peak/prime?

And like I said upthread I had Ovi as the top goalscorer of all time more than 5 years ago and thought the "he needs to win a SC" argument was overstated and that applies to McDavid as well.

You're such a weirdo, it's honestly stunning.

Shooting percentage is not a metric anyone with an ounce of intelligence has used to assess goalscoring. It's truly bizarre you would even bring it up.

No one has ever looked at a boxscore and said, "yeah, team A won this game, but imagine if they won it while taking fewer shots."

Even more stunning is your take on this read my last post above.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I know all about league averages and didn't make the original claim, just fact checked it but turns out a couple of people are sensitive to facts around here eh?

You "fact-checked" by bringing up shooting percentage and want to call people sensitive? lol

 

[eojsmada]

10-15 overall probably, which is crazy good. It's virtually impossible to figure out anything past 1-4 as there is some level of bias inflicted on the remaining candidates. Better to just have your list and be happy with it.

 

[SkinsFan09]

Sure that's great if the argument was something else but their individual performances show which player was better in h2h games right?

OV has 37G-30A-67Pts
Sid has 31G-60A-91Pts

I mean this thread wasn't even Crosby vs. Ovechkin but people couldn't help but turn it into that yet again.

 

[wetcoast]

You "fact-checked" by bringing up shooting percentage and want to call people sensitive? lol

Once again here is the quote, I just checked it.

Essentially the greatest goal scorer in every conceivable metric.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Once again here is the quote, I just checked it.

Essentially the greatest goal scorer in every conceivable metric.

What did you "check"? That he's not the greatest scorer by shooting %?

Congrats to Craig Simpson, Charlie Simmer, Sergei Makarov and Paul MacLean for throwing their hats into the ring on the best all time goalscorer discussion. I guess they should have just chosen to shoot more.

 

[IslandBeast]

The physicality and goal scoring are both crazy, along with a cup. I wouldn't disagree too much if anyone has him over Howe/Jagr/In their top 5.

 

[wetcoast]

What did you "check"? That he's not the greatest scorer by shooting %?

Congrats to Craig Simpson, Charlie Simmer, Sergei Makarov and Paul MacLean for throwing their hats into the ring on the best all time goalscorer discussion. I guess they should have just chosen to shoot more.

Hey I didn't say every metric but perhaps you didn't read my post of the quote which has been posted 3 times now and that's on you not me.

sure like I even mentioned those guys in particular or that any of those 4 players were even near the top 32 players in goal scoring from 59-60 to present.

so I'm asking what are you checking exactly something that wasn't brought up and in fact all four guys are excluded from that list.

Charlie Simmer is in fact the guy with the most goals that you mention and he is tied for 160th in goals so pardon me if I don't think that you are making a good faith argument here.

Also I went and looked at the time frame you presented and a similar pattern is there right?