Is Ovechkin the 5th best player of all time?

[Alexander the Gr8]

I’m about as big of an Ovi Homer as you can find, but I don’t have him in the top 5.

I have him as 8th. The 3 guys ahead are Crosby, Jagr and Lidstrom.

 

[Bouboumaster]

If Ovechkin had been born in Canada, this would be an entirely different conversation.

He's doing things nobody has ever done before. He came to a lottery team and they've been a perennial contender despite having a losing record when Ovie doesn't play (26-29-4). His impact is massively underrated because people pretend secondary assists are just as impactful as goals, and they completely ignore his physicality, which is a huge weapon, in addition to his excellent playmaking, leadership, durability, and reliability. He's been a franchise altering presence in DC.

The history forum laughably had him behind 4 players from the 1956 Canadians (as if Canada alone during the Great Depression/WWII and with a population of 11 million people was putting out far more talent than the current international era), and 17 places behind Bobby Hull (who was fifth) despite Ovechkin's accomplishments surpassing or at least equalling Hull's while playing against far superior competition. I have yet to see any rational basis for that. It was, however, supported by rampant and obvious falsehoods.

Put their careers side by side, it's quite difficult to argue that Bobby Hull was better, let alone 17 places better. But that's the ridiculousness we're contending with. So even if they acknowledge this, the outcome will be to rate Bobby Hull lower in order to compensate.

So it's pretty obvious Ovechkin will never get a fair shake from certain large contingents of North American hockey fans.

Cool story bro

Crosby: 1612 points in 1288 games, 3 cups, 2 Conn Smythe, much better 200 feet players and let's not even start to talk about the international success

What's the arguement for Ovechkin to be above Crosby exactly?


Crosby is #5

Ovechkin is between 10 and 15 IMO - Fantastic player, one of the greatest ever for sure, but he's not even the greatest of his era

North American bias my ass lol

 

[MakeTheGoalsLarger]

I have him around 5th among the players currently in the NHL.

Nice stats though.

 

[winnipegger]

What's the hardest thing to do in the NHL? It starts with G and ends with oal. Why aren't we putting more stock into that when thinking about legacies. This guy is literally the best at doing the hardest thing to do. Better than Gretzky. And he might keep this up for another several years who knows what he's capable of.

 

[hamzarocks]

I’m about as big of an Ovi Homer as you can find, but I don’t have him in the top 5.

I have him as 8th. The 3 guys ahead are Crosby, Jagr and Lidstrom.

Mcdavid is ahead of all 4 of those guys imo already with a better peak and prime then them all + better playoff player despite no cup.

I do have OV top 10ish but Lidstrom not there

Big 5 -Not in specific order

99
66
4
8
97

Tier 2 - Not in specific order
Crosby
Bobby Hull
Ray Bourque
Hasek
Jagr
OV
JB

Lidstrom is in the next tier after those above two tiers with names like Harvey, Roy, Mackinnon (assuming a top 3 ross+hart+lindsay finish) Kucherov (asumming a top3 ross+hart+lindsay finish), Rocket, Esposito, Lafleur, Messier, Sakic, Shore etc (this tier is quite deep)

 

[wetcoast]

It’s Hasek

I disagree but see the argument but we both agree that's it's not Ovi.

For me it's Crosby until McDavid passes him.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Mcdavid is ahead of all 4 of those guys imo already with a better peak and prime then them all + better playoff player despite no cup.

I do have OV top 10ish but Lidstrom not there

Big 5 -Not in specific order

99
66
4
8
97

Tier 2 - Not in specific order
Crosby
Bobby Hull
Ray Bourque
Hasek
Jagr
OV
JB

Lidstrom is in the next tier after those above two tiers with names like Harvey, Roy, Mackinnon (assuming a top 3 ross+hart+lindsay finish) Kucherov (asumming a top3 ross+hart+lindsay finish), Rocket, Esposito, Lafleur, Messier, Sakic, Shore etc (this tier is quite deep)

I’ll assume you meant 9 (Howe) instead of 8 for your top 5. As for Lidstrom, I rate him way higher than you do.

He is the best D I’ve ever seen in my life (Orr was before my time).

- No weaknesses of any sort to his game
- His team never missed the playoffs and he won 4 Cups.
- Countless Norris trophies, winning his last one at the age of 40.

 

[wetcoast]

What's the hardest thing to do in the NHL? It starts with G and ends with oal. Why aren't we putting more stock into that when thinking about legacies. This guy is literally the best at doing the hardest thing to do. Better than Gretzky. And he might keep this up for another several years who knows what he's capable of.

The hardest thing to do is win the SC not score goals.

The thing is that if one buys into the goal argument there is an assumption that all of the other greats of all time were are focused and tailored their game on scoring goals solely as much as Ovi does and that's not the case.

Nels Stewart and Maurice Richard weren't considered the best players of all time when they took over the NHL goals record...well maybe Richard had a bit of a case but it was more for the myth of Richard than the actual players overall accomplishments.

Ovi is a top 10ish to 15ish player of all time even if one considers him the bestish goal scorers of all time, which I have him as from about 5 seasons ago or so.

 

[WarriorofTime]

7th in Goals cumulatively as it stands today, from Ages 35-39 year old seasons is pretty nutty. For instance, Bret Hull and Teemu Selanne were 16th and 18th respectively in the cumulative five years they were those ages, both considered big time old guy scorers.

I know there's a big push towards "nothing Ovie has done in the last five years changes perception" but how can it not? The longevity stuff is rarefied air.

 

[winnipegger]

The hardest thing to do is win the SC not score goals.

The thing is that if one buys into the goal argument there is an assumption that all of the other greats of all time were are focused and tailored their game on scoring goals solely as much as Ovi does and that's not the case.

Nels Stewart and Maurice Richard weren't considered the best players of all time when they took over the NHL goals record...well maybe Richard had a bit of a case but it was more for the myth of Richard than the actual players overall accomplishments.

Ovi is a top 10ish to 15ish player of all time even if one considers him the bestish goal scorers of all time, which I have him as from about 5 seasons ago or so.

Ovie could have 5 cups. He has one. Cups are a measurement of the general manager, not any individual player. Maybe that is a controversial opinion. His playoff scoring has always been excellent. We are talking about the 5 best individual players.

 

[jigglysquishy]

7th in Goals cumulatively as it stands today, from Ages 35-39 year old seasons is pretty nutty. For instance, Bret Hull and Teemu Selanne were 16th and 18th respectively in the cumulative five years they were those ages, both considered big time old guy scorers.

I know there's a big push towards "nothing Ovie has done in the last five years changes perception" but how can it not? The longevity stuff is rarefied air.

If he was competing with Brett Hull and Teemu Selanne, it would be huge. But he passed them 10 years ago.

Richard was 6th in the same age frame in goals. Jagr scored 420 points after his 35th birthday including some pretty crazy mid 40s seasons. That's not even to mention Howe, who has arguably the best single post 35 run in the sport's history.

Fair point on Bobby Hull, who left the NHL at 33. He was tremendous in the WHA, but it doesn't mean a whole lot.

 

[hamzarocks]

I’ll assume you meant 9 (Howe) instead of 8 for your top 5. As for Lidstrom, I rate him way higher than you do.

He is the best D I’ve ever seen in my life (Orr was before my time).

- No weaknesses of any sort to his game
- His team never missed the playoffs and he won 4 Cups.
- Countless Norris trophies, winning his last one at the age of 40.

Yes meant *9 (howe) and typed 8 by error

Lidstrom had 7 norries but thats only O think 2 more than RB. Bourque was top 5 for nearly 20+ years as a D-man. Elite on both ends of the ice

He would need to be above Lidstrom due to his whole career long being his prime

Harvey won 7 norrises as well I think so he should be right there with Lidstrom, though I doubt many have seen him play (including myself)

Hasek also cany be forgotten. 6 vezina's, 2 harts, 2 lindsays. He has the best 6-year peak+prime for a goalie ever and top 5 or 6 ever for a player. Lack of longevity stops him from being in the big 4 tier.

Then Bobby Hull was basically the OV of his generation so he should be somewhere in the 5 to 12 range

 

[wetcoast]

Ovie could have 5 cups. He has one. Cups are a measurement of the general manager, not any individual player. Maybe that is a controversial opinion. His playoff scoring has always been excellent. We are talking about the 5 best individual players.

I know what we are talking about but really the goal scoring thing being the hardest to do just doesn't hold up like I stated in my post, it's not like he isn't a huge volume shooter for his career and other guys that are in the mix , say Crosby has a lot of goals as well.

Let's put this another way, Ovie is the better goal scorer and hitter than Crosby but then you have playoff resume, playmaker, faceoff centerman, defensive play and more points in less games .

Those things all tilt away and overcome the goalscoring advantage Ovi has.

We can apply this for other players as well, it's not like we look at best players and look only at goals or even primarily there.

 

[filinski77]

McDavid is #5 to me, and Ovi falls in that 6-10 range. To say Ovi isn’t top-10 though is insane.

Essentially the greatest goal scorer in every conceivable metric. Goal scoring is objectively the main point of hockey and also the hardest thing to do.

Has a 3 year peak that pretty much no one outside of the big 4 can match.

3 Harts + 1 more as the highest ranking skater (since he lost one to Price). So 4 highest skater Hart rankings.

3x first place point/gp finishes. And none of them were half seasons, one was a Ross win; other two he was 10 or less GP down.

Will finish his career top-5 all time in adjusted points and top-10 all time in raw points.

More hits than anyone somewhat skilled player in NHL history (assumption due to lack of tracking of the stat, but I’m close to confident in it).

 

[Plural]

Theres just no way person who has good undestanding/sense of hockey has watched old Ovechkin play and thinks he is good player;D he is barely ECHLlevelish hockey player in raw ability speed hands hockey sense etc.. theres thousands better player around world atm. without status he wont make it to any professional level league well maybe Saudi arabian SHOWCASE leaguee or Turkish shop center league or whatever, but player of Ovechkin's abilities just isnt cut to make it for example in Austrias or Slovakia's league without status. I Dont think he could take play spot in swedish 3rd tier league if he would come to try out with hidden identitety.

You've been doing this for 9 years, how does it not get boring?

 

[Beau Knows]

McDavid is #5 to me, and Ovi falls in that 6-10 range. To say Ovi isn’t top-10 though is insane.

Seems like a bit of an arbitrary line to draw. Like if you put him 10th that's fine, but 11th would be insane?

I mean if someone ranks Ovechkin 25th all-time or something, that looks pretty questionable but I don't think there's such a massive difference between the players fighting for the 5th-15th spot that any of them being rearranged in almost any order is crazy.

 

[uncleben]

You keep doing you.

What about that Bavarian cream pie joke? There's no foundation to that. Nobody with a terminal illness goes from the United States to Europe for a piece of Bavarian cream pie and then when they get there and they don't have it he says "Aw, I'll just have some coffee."

We'll see who gets *that* reference.

 

[wetcoast]

McDavid is #5 to me, and Ovi falls in that 6-10 range. To say Ovi isn’t top-10 though is insane.

I don't disagree with the around 10ish mark as there are Dmen and goalies to consider as well.

Essentially the greatest goal scorer in every conceivable metric.

Not in the shooting % metric and that's where the rubber hits the road as after age 25 his focus on goals over all else is extremely demonstrable right?

Goal scoring is objectively the main point of hockey and also the hardest thing to do.

Objectively sure whatever man it's all subjective.

Has a 3 year peak that pretty much no one outside of the big 4 can match.

Maybe you missed this guy called connor McDavid?

Also even if one buys your argument what happens with best 4,5,6,7...19 year evaluations...which is what all time rankings also consider.

3 Harts + 1 more as the highest ranking skater (since he lost one to Price). So 4 highest skater Hart rankings.

Highest skater hart rankings....sounds like a new invented category since the goals, goals created argument left town.

3x first place point/gp finishes. And none of them were half seasons, one was a Ross win; other two he was 10 or less GP down.

Just for comparison in the same time frame Crosby has 5 first place finishes in PPG and 12 top 10 finishes to Ovi's 8.

Will finish his career top-5 all time in adjusted points and top-10 all time in raw points.

But still will be second in his era and then 3rd when McDavid passes him.

More hits than anyone somewhat skilled player in NHL history (assumption due to lack of tracking of the stat, but I’m close to confident in it).

Sure goals and hits but then other parts of his game, many other layers have been much better at thus 1st in goals won't equal a 5th best all time ranking.

 

[Plural]

There are a few arguments for Hull over Ovi.

In his NHL prime they played 70 games, not 82. Another 12 games a year and his compiling stats and season individual totals likely look far more impressive.

Hull spent 7 years of his career in the WHA, when he was still playing at an extremely high level. He had scored 50 goals the year before he left the NHL. Obviously the WHA was an inferior league lacking the depth of the NHL but his career statistics likely shine much brighter if he stays in the NHL his entire career. I believe he would have competed for more rockets in his 33-40 year old seasons. People tend to ignore that the NHL also became weaker due to the emergence of the WHL. When Hull came back to the NHL at 41 he still scored at a 18 goal, 52 point pace.

The other argument is regarding his overall hart records as opposed to wins alone. These are their top 3 finishes.

Hull - 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3

Ovi - 1, 1, 1, 2, 2

Fair to say Hull was much more consistently a top player in the NHL. Hull was more like Crosby than Ovi in that regard, but obviously a better goal scorer by far.

How are we thinking of Hart voting in smaller league? Best are the best no matter what so it doesn't matter or is it harder to be on top in a larger league?

When thinking of Premier League for example, I do think people tend to compensate for the quality of the league when doing cross-generational comparisons.

 

[psycat]

I don't know but I will say that he got just as good of a case as Crosby, I would probably put Hasek 5th but comparing goalies to skaters is kinda futile I suppose.

If anything I think McDavid will slot pretty confidently at 5th when all is said and done. Crosby/Ovi? They are in contention for spots in the top 10 but by no means clear cut there either for me. Bourque, Jagr, Hull, LaFleur, Lidström, Roy, Beliveau etc are all in the same ballpark. Could make an argument for any of them above the other and I wouldn't really question, but neither blindly accept, it.

 

[wetcoast]

Ah, so when Beliveau is 6th in points from 1958 - 1971 it’s “strong longevity” and “elite into his late 30s” but when Ovechkin is 3rd in points from 10-11 to 2025 it’s “very little of note.”

What years are you using here I did 4 searches from 57-58 season to the 70-71 to 71-72 season and nowhere does Jean end up in 6th and from 57-58 to 70-71 he is a very solid 3rd behind Howe and Hull but basically on par with PPG over that long period.

Also in each players respective time periods that you mention Jean has 6 top 5 Hart finishes and Ovi has 2.

 

[authentic]

If he was competing with Brett Hull and Teemu Selanne, it would be huge. But he passed them 10 years ago.

Richard was 6th in the same age frame in goals. Jagr scored 420 points after his 35th birthday including some pretty crazy mid 40s seasons. That's not even to mention Howe, who has arguably the best single post 35 run in the sport's history.

Fair point on Bobby Hull, who left the NHL at 33. He was tremendous in the WHA, but it doesn't mean a whole lot.

I think Hull was good enough in the WHA that he still showed he would’ve been an elite player in the NHL. He had 70 something goals one year you have to think that would’ve been atleast 50 in the NHL.

 

[Fantomas]

Not in the shooting % metric and that's where the rubber hits the road

lol what does this even mean

 

[Midnight Judges]

Cool story bro

Crosby: 1612 points in 1288 games, 3 cups, 2 Conn Smythe, much better 200 feet players and let's not even start to talk about the international success

What's the arguement for Ovechkin to be above Crosby exactly?

That he has more Harts, is the greatest goal scorer of all time, is exponentially more physical, and has basically the same number of points as Crosby in the same number of seasons, except his points are comprised of 265 more goals whereas Crosby has 115 more secondary assists.

 

[wetcoast]

How are we thinking of Hart voting in smaller league? Best are the best no matter what so it doesn't matter or is it harder to be on top in a larger league?

Somewhere in between probably but Hart voting isn't always for best player and a guy on a playoff team that doesn't have elite team mates also has an advantage in Hart voting.

When thinking of Premier League for example, I do think people tend to compensate for the quality of the league when doing cross-generational comparisons.

There is an argument there but it applies to other guys who will be in the mix for 5th best like Crosby and McDavid.

League size and composition both matter but what degree we can't be certain.

Also this argument can be overplayed, I mean is Orr twice the Dman that Harvey was just because the league was twice as big and he dominated much more than Harvey did?