Is Ovechkin the 5th best player of all time?

[winnipegger]

Can't resolve this debate with my highly respected hockey friend. I believe he is, assuming he breaks the record before he retires.

Most people have Gretz #1, and #2 #3 and #4 are some combination of Howe, Orr, and Lemieux. When I think of other players to put in at #5 (Crosby for example), they never measure up to breaking a Gretzky scoring record like Ovechkin. Longevity also factors in. Ovechkin is threatening a rocket Richard trophy at age 39. This is simply unheard of in the modern NHL.

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[Colezuki]

Can't resolve this debate with my highly respected hockey friend. I believe he is, assuming he breaks the record before he retires.

Most people have Gretz #1, and #2 #3 and #4 are some combination of Howe, Orr, and Lemieux. When I think of other players to put in at #5 (Crosby for example), they never measure up to breaking a Gretzky scoring record like Ovechkin. Longevity also factors in. Ovechkin is threatening a rocket Richard trophy at age 39. This is simply unheard of in the modern NHL.

I think you may want to cool at the Richard talk, much like a rookie fades I could see ovechkin fading down the stretch, still impressive but unlikely to happen given the current state of the league.

Saying that I still have Crosby over him in my personal one, but if anything it’s like 5a/5b and the difference is going to be minuscule by the time there both done.

 

[CanadienShark]

No he's not. He's hovering in the top 10 range. Arguably closer to 15 than 5.

 

[ViD]

When he hits 894

 

[Albatros]

Nowhere close. He had five seasons within Hart top 5 during his own playing days.

 

[moropanov]

NO he isnt even good player hasnt been for long time. Arguably one of worst players atm in NHL its fair to say he isnt NHL calibre player nowadays hasnt been for years. OFC he gets goals because its forced show typic think nowadays, but in pure ability i doubt theres any professional hockey mind who would rank ovechkin as a top 500 hockey player in world atm if being honest valueting overall skill and ability usefulness in ice hockey.

 

[centipede2233]

Crosby is the much better defensive forward and ranked ahead of ovie in all time lists. Add in the fact ovie has underwhelmed in international tournaments and Crosby has won everything.

Crosby lifetime +/- to date = +213
Ovechkin lifetime +/- to date = +54

 

[CanadienShark]

NO he isnt even good player hasnt been for long time. Arguably one of worst players atm in NHL its fair to say he isnt NHL calibre player nowadays hasnt been for years. OFC he gets goals because its forced show typic think nowadays, but in pure ability i doubt theres any professional hockey mind who would rank ovechkin as a top 500 hockey player in world atm if being honest valueting overall skill and ability usefulness in ice hockey.

Agreed. I prefer players who can't score goals.

 

[zenthusiast]

It’s Hasek

 

[Three On Zero]

NO he isnt even good player hasnt been for long time. Arguably one of worst players atm in NHL its fair to say he isnt NHL calibre player nowadays hasnt been for years. OFC he gets goals because its forced show typic think nowadays, but in pure ability i doubt theres any professional hockey mind who would rank ovechkin as a top 500 hockey player in world atm if being honest valueting overall skill and ability usefulness in ice hockey.

 

[Offtheboard412]

Crosby is the much better defensive forward and ranked ahead of ovie in all time lists. Add in the fact ovie has underwhelmed in international tournaments and Crosby has won everything.

Crosby lifetime +/- to date = +213
Ovechkin lifetime +/- to date = +54

Oh Lord. You just put on the bat signal. He's coming.

 

[dr robbie]

Oh Lord. You just put on the bat signal. He's coming.

... only games that are played matter ...
... goal is worth 0.7853c36&)0 assists ...
... Canadian bias is rampant and ruining hockey ...
... one dimension of play is really 15 dimensions if you think about it long enough ...
... all stats are bad if they don't specifically reflect who I'm trying to pump up ...

Just the appetizer

 

[Hanji]

No. The Top 5 are:

1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Lemieux
4. Howe
5. Hasek

 

[bobholly39]

Nope, not for me.

Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux and Howe are an obvious #4. Ovechkin has 0 chance to ever displace any of those.

At #5 I have Crosby - but I personally also have all of Beliveau, Roy, and Jagr clearly above Ovechkin.,

So for me - Ovechkin's case starts at #9. I have him in the ~9-11 range.

For what it's worth - he is one of about ~10-15 players in that tier of #5-15 ranking that can be ranked in any order. So - it's certainly not impossible for someone to slot him at #5, but I personally don't. I don't think he was consistently elite enough to rank so high.

Finally - I'd say what I'm most against is the idea that some think he isn't #5 today, but that if he beats Gretzky's record he automatically becomes #5. That's idiotic. You should judge a player on his whole career - +/- 1 goal shouldn't make a difference. Either Ovechkin is good enough for you to be #5 with 893 career goals, either he isn't - and getting an extra 2 goals for 895 should have no effect on his rank.

 

[BraveCanadian]

No, by the time he was done his younger dynamic days, Ovechkin became too much of a turret and doesn’t drive play anywhere close to 5th all time.

5th will end up being McDavid if he keeps it up.. right now the log jam there is Beliveau, Crosby, et al.

 

[Coffee]

Nope, not for me.

Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux and Howe are an obvious #4. Ovechkin has 0 chance to ever displace any of those.

At #5 I have Crosby - but I personally also have all of Beliveau, Roy, and Jagr clearly above Ovechkin.,

So for me - Ovechkin's case starts at #9. I have him in the ~9-11 range.

For what it's worth - he is one of about ~10-15 players in that tier of #5-15 ranking that can be ranked in any order. So - it's certainly not impossible for someone to slot him at #5, but I personally don't. I don't think he was consistently elite enough to rank so high.

Finally - I'd say what I'm most against is the idea that some think he isn't #5 today, but that if he beats Gretzky's record he automatically becomes #5. That's idiotic. You should judge a player on his whole career - +/- 1 goal shouldn't make a difference. Either Ovechkin is good enough for you to be #5 with 893 career goals, either he isn't - and getting an extra 2 goals for 895 should have no effect on his rank.

I’m really curious , bobholly, who is 14th on your list ?

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

5 is McDavids spot

 

[Signupnow]

I don't know where to find but it would be interesting to see Crosby vs ovie records in NHL. Especially since ovie will score the most goals in the history of the sport.

What does Crosby have on him when we open history books in the future? Concussions? Who has the most stacked trophy case? Who will be doing what noone else have ever done which is also the most important aspect of the game?

 

[ElLeetch]

he's a goal scorer, not a hockey player.

 

[bobholly39]

I’m really curious , bobholly, who is 14th on your list ?

I'd probably have Maurice Richard, Bobby Hull and Doug Harvey as the next 3, but not sure on order. I'm leaning Hull at 12, Richard at 13, and Harvey at 14.

 

[Midnight Judges]

If Ovechkin had been born in Canada, this would be an entirely different conversation.

He's doing things nobody has ever done before. He came to a lottery team and they've been a perennial contender despite having a losing record when Ovie doesn't play (26-29-4). His impact is massively underrated because people pretend secondary assists are just as impactful as goals, and they completely ignore his physicality, which is a huge weapon, in addition to his excellent playmaking, leadership, durability, and reliability. He's been a franchise altering presence in DC.

The history forum laughably had him behind 4 players from the 1956 Canadians (as if Canada alone during the Great Depression/WWII and with a population of 11 million people was putting out far more talent than the current international era), and 17 places behind Bobby Hull (who was fifth) despite Ovechkin's accomplishments surpassing or at least equalling Hull's while playing against far superior competition. I have yet to see any rational basis for that. It was, however, supported by rampant and obvious falsehoods.

Put their careers side by side, it's quite difficult to argue that Bobby Hull was better, let alone 17 places better. But that's the ridiculousness we're contending with. So even if they acknowledge this, the outcome will be to rate Bobby Hull lower in order to compensate.

So it's pretty obvious Ovechkin will never get a fair shake from certain large contingents of North American hockey fans.

 

[gtrower]

There will be people in this thread that swear he’s unseating one of the Top 4 with a pretty decent argument to back it up. There will be people in this thread that have him outside the Top 15 with pretty decent argument to back it up.

But one thing is for sure. History will look more and more kindly upon Ovi as the years go on. He’ll finish with the 2nd or 3rd biggest trophy case, a slew of all time records, and will be plastered over NHL media for decades (if not longer) atop every list of any current player doing anything notable with respect to putting the puck into the net.

His final goal tally will be one of the 2 immortal numbers in hockey. That kind of legacy only gains power over time.

 

[Crow]

I have him and Crosby neck and neck at 10-11 Both guys are behind Hull, Beliveau, Hasek, Roy, Bourque.

 

[Midnight Judges]

... one dimension of play...

Feel free to defend your argument then.

Finish the following sentences:

Ovechkin is 5th all time in adjusted points and will end his career top 10 all time in raw points despite playing mostly in a low scoring era, but actually he's one dimensional because _________.

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Adjusted Points | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Wayne Gretzky (2475), 2. Gordie Howe (2190), 3. Jaromír Jágr (2080), 4. Sidney Crosby (1823), 5. Alex Ovechkin (1805), 6. Mark Messier (1732), 7. Ron Francis (1711), 8. Joe Thornton (1692), 9. Joe Sakic (1679), 10. Steve Yzerman (1650)

www.hockey-reference.com

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Ovechkin is top 60 all time in raw assists and top 45 in adjusted assists, but he doesn't actually do anything except score goals, because _____________.

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Adjusted Assists | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Wayne Gretzky (1717), 2. Gordie Howe (1265), 3. Jaromír Jágr (1239), 4. Joe Thornton (1215), 5. Ron Francis (1193), 6. Sidney Crosby (1138), 7. Mark Messier (1104), 8. Adam Oates (1065), 9. Ray Bourque (1058), 10. Joe Sakic (1036)

www.hockey-reference.com

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Ovechkin's only hockey aspect is goal scoring. Just because he's top 3 in hits during his generation doesn't mean he's physical. In fact Ovechkin does NOT have a physical aspect to his game because ______________.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

I look forward to you at least making even slightest effort to defend your "one dimensional" falsehood. I mean, you won't because you can't, but I hereby extend the invitation anyway.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

Wayne
Mario
Orr
Howe
Jagr

I don't see Oevchkin cracking that top 5.
Greatest goal scorer of all time though.