Speculation: Is our defence good enough to go deep in the playoffs?

[zeke]

For me the lack of a Muzzin alternative is a big gripe I have with team construction. Obviously the recent drafts won’t address the immediate team needs but a Braden Schneider or a Kaiden Guhle would have given us a plausible heir to that position.

Its funny how every "muzzin alternative" named around here is a much worse players than muzzin.

 

[tmlms13]

100% depends on health but I think they are much better in the 7-10 options for when (not if) injuries occur.

 

[notbias]

For me the lack of a Muzzin alternative is a big gripe I have with team construction. Obviously the recent drafts won’t address the immediate team needs but a Braden Schneider or a Kaiden Guhle would have given us a plausible heir to that position.

Do you want AHL-level players on the team? Not sure either guy makes the team.

Also, I know he has been sick so he doesn't get much hype, but if he was still playing right now, Amirov is our best prospect by a mile, wouldn't trade him for either.

Just for future reference, what is a Muzzin alternative? Just someone that hits? Liljegren and Gio play the body well just don't destroy people. Sandin lays the odd big hit. Just trying to get an idea of what we are looking for.

 

[tmlms13]

Its funny how every "muzzin alternative" named around here is a much worse players than muzzin.

The most useful thing Muzzin can do is head to the Island so we have cap space to use at the TDL.

 

[notbias]

The most useful thing Muzzin can do is head to the Island so we have cap space to use at the TDL.

Muzzin is a great player and likely a #2, not sure what team you have been watching, but can't be this one.

Playoffs especially, him and Brodie were great.

 

[tmlms13]

Muzzin is a great player and likely a #2, not sure what team you have been watching, but can't be this one.

Playoffs especially, him and Brodie were great.

Um no he's not that good anymore, maybe 3 years ago he was a #2....day before the TDL head to LTIR and pull a Kutcherov.

 

[cupcrazyman2]

Not with Holl on your blueline.

 

[zeke]

Um no he's not that good anymore, maybe 3 years ago he was a #2

literally these past playoffs.

 

[Stephen]

Its funny how every "muzzin alternative" named around here is a much worse players than muzzin.

We live in a cap world. If people were to suggest serious blueline moves and upgrades, guys like Muzzin himself would have to be ruthlessly traded away and hard decisions on Tavares and Nylander would have to be made.

A healthy Muzzin is a very impactful player. But counting on that these days is like trying to get another Norris level year out of Giordano.

 

[zeke]

We live in a cap world. If people were to suggest serious blueline moves and upgrades, guys like Muzzin himself would have to be ruthlessly traded away and hard decisions on Tavares and Nylander would have to be made.

A healthy Muzzin is a very impactful player. But counting on that these days is like trying to get another Norris level year out of Giordano.

Except people seem to want to use his capspace on downgrades.

 

[notbias]

Um no he's not that good anymore, maybe 3 years ago he was a #2....day before the TDL head to LTIR and pull a Kutcherov.

Sure, if he will come back for the playoffs, he is still a #3 at worst and likely a #2, he is a really good player.

 

[Stephen]

Do you want AHL-level players on the team? Not sure either guy makes the team.

Also, I know he has been sick so he doesn't get much hype, but if he was still playing right now, Amirov is our best prospect by a mile, wouldn't trade him for either.

Just for future reference, what is a Muzzin alternative? Just someone that hits? Liljegren and Gio play the body well just don't destroy people. Sandin lays the odd big hit. Just trying to get an idea of what we are looking for.

The closest actual thing to a Jake Muzzin is probably Ryan McDonagh, which is an all situation workhorse guy who just thrives in a classic tight playoff game. Muzzin is a bit bigger and McDonagh is a more mobile skater.

We don’t have the cap space for that kind of player. But it would be good if we actually had that player type coming up the prospect pipeline so we could replace Muzz one day without having to make another Muzzin trade.

I like Amirov but the blueline prospect type is not diversified enough.

 

[Stephen]

Except people seem to want to use his capspace on downgrades.

Depends on how you slice the $5.6 million.

 

[notbias]

The closest actual thing to a Jake Muzzin is probably Ryan McDonagh, which is an all situation workhorse guy who just thrives in a classic tight playoff game. Muzzin is a bit bigger and McDonagh is a more mobile skater.

We don’t have the cap space for that kind of player. But it would be good if we actually had that player type coming up the prospect pipeline so we could replace Muzz one day without having to make another Muzzin trade.

I like Amirov but the blueline prospect type is not diversified enough.

To me, that describes what Liljegren is turning into, not sure that describes a Guhle or Schneider.

I am super high on Liljegren though and think he can be an amazing defensive player with great transition skills, and maybe he just falls a little short offensively.

 

[tmlms13]

literally these past playoffs.

When healthy he is a middle pair at best, so #3 or #4. Thinking he's on Rielly's level is just insane.

 

[Stephen]

To me, that describes what Liljegren is turning into, not sure that describes a Guhle or Schneider.

I am super high on Liljegren though and think he can be an amazing defensive player with great transition skills, and maybe he just falls a little short offensively.

Liljegren is not turning into Muzzin or McDonagh. He’s probably on track to be a leakier Brodie with a touch more offense.

 

[notbias]

Liljegren is not turning into Muzzin or McDonagh. He’s probably on track to be a leakier Brodie with a touch more offense.

He already plays more physical than Brodie and is much bigger.

 

[Mess]

The Leafs finished 19th in goal against with 253.

Show me a good defense and I'll show you a good goalie, show me average defense and I'll show you an average goaltender.

If your team is in the top 10 in goals against then your defense and team defense is good enough.

"Defense wins Championships"

 

[tmlms13]

To me, that describes what Liljegren is turning into, not sure that describes a Guhle or Schneider.

I am super high on Liljegren though and think he can be an amazing defensive player with great transition skills, and maybe he just falls a little short offensively.

Remember Lilly was a top 3 draft prospect pre draft year. The talent is there. That's why I loved the pick so much back in 2017

 

[notbias]

The Leafs finished 19th in goal against with 253.

Show me a good defense and I'll show you a good goalie, show me average defense and I'll show you .

If your team is in the top 10 in goals against then your defense and team defense is good enough.

"Defense wins Championships"

Colorado D and Kuemper in the playoffs, explain, please.

Was he a good goalie?

Remember Lilly was a top 3 draft prospect pre draft year. The talent is there. That's why I loved the pick so much back in 2017

He was there due to being an offensive D though, from what I remember there were Karlsson comparisons (could be wrong).

I think he is turning into an amazing two-way defenseman.

Much higher on him than Sandin, I think Liljegren can top out as a #2 as I just don't think the offensive IQ is there, although I think the tools are.

Defensively he looks great though.

 

[Stephen]

He already plays more physical than Brodie and is much bigger.

Fun fact, McDonagh is smaller than Brodie or Liljegren. I said leakier.

 

[zeke]

When healthy he is a middle pair at best, so #3 or #4. Thinking he's on Rielly's level is just insane.

Rielly is a good #1 dman. Muzzin isn't that, but he's been a #2 caliber dman his whole career, including these past playoffs.

 

[notbias]

Fun fact, McDonagh is smaller than Brodie or Liljegren. I said leakier.

Not according to their listed weights, his height is the same as Liljegren's.

Anyway, misread "leakier", but I still think his game will more resemble a McDonagh, and not a Brodie, Brodie uses his stick much more than I think Liljegren will.

I don't think Liljegren will blow people up like Muzzin, but I think he already uses his body a fair bit to outmuscle people and get a better position.

 

[Fogelhund]

The closest actual thing to a Jake Muzzin is probably Ryan McDonagh, which is an all situation workhorse guy who just thrives in a classic tight playoff game. Muzzin is a bit bigger and McDonagh is a more mobile skater.

We don’t have the cap space for that kind of player. But it would be good if we actually had that player type coming up the prospect pipeline so we could replace Muzz one day without having to make another Muzzin trade.

I like Amirov but the blueline prospect type is not diversified enough.

Let's do a deal with Minnesota. They have good defensive prospects, and frankly they are likely to be in tough to find spots. With Spurgeon, Dumba (I'd assume he'll get extended), Addison (Who is expected to QB their PP) plus other shorter term options on the right side, Brodin, Middleton and Merril all signed to 25/26 on the Left side... then they have O'Rourke (LHD) and Faber (RHD) (Captain for University of Minnesota).

I don't know what it would take to pick up Faber... it wouldn't be cheap, but I think it would be a great move. Faber is great defensively, but just ok offensively, despite his hot start this year. O'Rourke is a physical guy, who has an overall good game. Plus, he played for the Soo. Top 25 Under 25: Ryan O’ Rourke pushes and shoves his way to No. 15

I don't know if Minnesota is open to moving either of these guys, but I'd pick up the phone and ask.

 

[ponder]

I have no particular worries about regressions from Rielly, Brodie, Liljegren, Sandin or Holl. Rielly, Brodie and Holl haven’t shown any signs of slowing down to me (Holl, I don’t like his game, but that’s not new), and Sandin and Liljegren should be improving rapidly. No overly significant injuries in this group either - just some short term, not concerning stuff.

Gio is aging and could certainly drop off, but if he does, Sandin can replace him. Not worried.

Muzzin is the main concern - he’s the only punishing physical D we have. We can’t just say “replace Muzz with Sandin” the way we can say “replace Gio with Sandin”, as Muzz has a unique (and important) role on our team. He also DID slow down very noticeably last regular season, though got his game back to normal for the playoffs. Plus he seems to have a nagging injury. I’m legit concerned that he slows down further and can’t ramp it back up for the playoffs - may not happen, but it’s a risk.

Overall, I think we have a well above average D. Muzzin is a concern, but not enough to make the defence as a whole TOO concerning.

I do really like our depth. 7 strong dmen, and 2 more serviceable NHL dmen waiting in the wings (Benn/Mete), that’s very nice.