Speculation: Is our defence good enough to go deep in the playoffs?

[The Iceman]

Maybe a new thread

Can we win a round with this D? Lets start there.

 

[notbias]

Yes and if you are the team's number 7 are you not a depth player? If you get to play from time to time are you not a 6/7?

Benn is not a #7, he is somewhere between 8-10 on our team

 

[Nineteen67]

Brodie - reliable, best D on the team
Muzzin - Experinced, reliable, if he’s healthy hes pretty solid

Rielly - Experienced, somewhat unpredictable in his own end, can skate well and provide offence.

Holl - probably gone due to cap. He’s serviceable

Liljegren - lots of opportunities for improvement, yet capable of filling a role.
Sandin - needs improvement - is his skating and strength good enough for a long playoff run?

Benn - Experienced, strong
Mete - Has yet to be a good NHL player.

Even with the two super elite forwards, as of now, it’s hard to predict if this team can go on a long playoff run. They’ll need to be dedicated to team D. If they are, maybe they can.

 

[Nineteen67]

Maybe a new thread

Can we win a round with this D? Lets start there.

With the right match up, yes. More likely because of Marner and Matthews than the D.

 

[Fogelhund]

With Muzzin showing questionable/challenging back issues, Liljegren having hernia surgery, Sandin starting the season from behind (only slightly), Benn being injured (I do believe that Dubas signed him to be a 6/7 D), and Holl slipping (poor play) it does lead me to ask the question:

Is our defence good enough to go deep in the playoffs?

It's early, but I do think that TOR's D is not good enough. Luckily Dubas/Keefe have plenty of runway to improve things. I also mention this because at one point this season Giordano is going to need some load management. He's good still, but it's a lot to ask for him to carry a big load.

What's your opinion?

My opinion is that the playoffs are a long ways into the future. You are speculating things, that while question marks, may be answered very soon, and become non-issues.

In the months to come, we will find out where Muzzin is at. Maybe it's a worry, maybe it's not.
In the months to come, we will find out how Liljegren recovers, even if it takes time to be 100%, which he probably will be before 2023.
Sandin missing a few pre-season games, and practises, will really only hurt for a week or two.... not until the playoffs.
Benn was signed as a #8
Mete #9

Last years opening night lineup had
Rielly Brodie
Muzzin Holl
Sandin Dermott

There will always be change during a season, maybe up front, maybe on D, maybe in goaltending. We've upgraded from Dermott to Gio, Sandin and Liljegren are a year older, and better. Muzzin IMO is the only real question mark there... and Holl likely gets dropped at times, or is time managed with Gio... if Holl stays.

 

[ToDavid]

Not particularly concerned.

Muzzin/Holl were fine by the end of the season last year. It's just hard to shake off the reputation of a bad start. Ideally Holl is playing third pair with Liljegren moving up by the end of this season but people suggesting he's not an NHL defenseman are crazy. Although he may still find himself in the press box if one of the lefties proves they can play the right. An aside but lol at the people getting all over him in the GDT the other day when he and Gio were dominant in a 5-1 win because he was tripped before a goal against on the PK.

I think Sandin and Liljegren are the x factors. Both have proved they can play in the regular season. Sandin was hurt right up until the playoffs and didn't play, Liljegren didn't play great in the few games he was in. If they can take another step and bring their regular season play and confidence into the post season, I think we've got a very formidable D lineup.

 

[SprDaVE]

It was last year, it will be this year. It's literally the same.

 

[Stephen]

I’m not comfortable with the composition of the blueline being concentrated on LHD and LD, as well as the well covered size mix to withstand the type of playoff hockey we’ve come to expect.

But a couple of wildcards here is how much will Liljegren and Sandin develop. Aka a little bit and incrementally, or will they take a massive step forward? And if Giordano can tap into some former Norris caliber play. These factors are big swings.

Plus we need to see a full season of Murray and Samsonov. If those guys hit their ceilings maybe we have better goaltending than we’ve ever had. If they don’t it will magnify defensive issues.

Final factor is if the Leafs can dictate play in a series and turn it into a puck possession bonanza and completely thwart the other teams tendency to grind it out or park the bus or disrupt, that will also change the way we need to defend.

Also, with the defensive 3rd and 4th lines maybe the Leafs will be defending from the opposition blueline back and have greater defensive layering. That takes pressure off having to defend in a classical playoff siege since you’re disrupting all 200 feet.

 

[ACC1224]

It was last year, it will be this year. It's literally the same.

You can't say it was when they didn't go deep last year.
You can think it would have been.

 

[SprDaVE]

You can't say it was when they didn't go deep last year.
You can think it would have been.

Not every loss is because of a defensive core, not every win is because of it either.

You can blame the defense all you want though. I think they are more than good enough to go deep in the playoffs.

 

[Fogelhund]

Also, with the defensive 3rd and 4th lines maybe the Leafs will be defending from the opposition blueline back and have greater defensive layering. That takes pressure off having to defend in a classical playoff siege since you’re disrupting all 200 feet.

I think we need to see what the final lineups are... I'm not convinced that the 3rd line is going to be a defensive line at this time.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You can't say it was when they didn't go deep last year.

You can say it was when literally everything says it was. Just because they didn't go deep last year, that doesn't mean they didn't go deep last year because their defense wasn't good enough.

 

[zeke]

It was last year, it will be this year. It's literally the same.

Likely better tbh.

2 major injuries on the dcorps last year plus Gio was only here at the end.

If they could finally have faith in the kids come playoffs that would be nice, because Sandin/Lilly should be a pretty huge upgrade over Holl/Boosh.

I think we need to see what the final lineups are... I'm not convinced that the 3rd line is going to be a defensive line at this time.

The current 3rd line looks like a very good 2-way line that should score 40-50gls without much PP time while being solid defensively.

 

[ACC1224]

Not every loss is because of a defensive core, not every win is because of it either.

You can blame the defense all you want though. I think they are more than good enough to go deep in the playoffs.

I wasn't blaming the defense, not sure why you got that impression.

 

[Nineteen67]

Sounds like they’ll be better than last year and will win their third straight Hypothetical Cup.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Not yet. But by the deadline. Could very well be.

 

[Gabriel426]

Kind of too soon to tell since playoffs is 8months away.
But if playoffs start tomorrow, the Leafs Dcorps is good enough to for a deep playoffs run.

 

[IPS]

You can easily win the cup with a 10-15 ranked defense if your goalie / forwards get hot. If Matthews/Marner/Murray go god mode come playoff time the Leafs can beat anyone.

But yes Muzzin's injury does worry me badly, some people don't realize how big he is to our D. There's nobody else in the organization who can replicate what he brings.

 

[Stephen]

I think we need to see what the final lineups are... I'm not convinced that the 3rd line is going to be a defensive line at this time.

Yeah the key is to see what the team looks like on the ice and just keep updating opinions. October hockey is also not May-June hockey.

 

[Stephen]

You can easily win the cup with a 10-15 ranked defense if your goalie / forwards get hot. If Matthews/Marner/Murray go god mode come playoff time the Leafs can beat anyone.

But yes Muzzin's injury does worry me badly, some people don't realize how big he is to our D. There's nobody else in the organization who can replicate what he brings.

For me the lack of a Muzzin alternative is a big gripe I have with team construction. Obviously the recent drafts won’t address the immediate team needs but a Braden Schneider or a Kaiden Guhle would have given us a plausible heir to that position.

 

[Nineteen67]

You can easily win the cup with a 10-15 ranked defense if your goalie / forwards get hot. If Matthews/Marner/Murray go god mode come playoff time the Leafs can beat anyone.

But yes Muzzin's injury does worry me badly, some people don't realize how big he is to our D. There's nobody else in the organization who can replicate what he brings.

Thankfully, nobody has ever “easily” won a Cup. But without a superstar they can still win if they sacrifice enough.

 

[LeafGrief]

Our defense has been very good for a few years now. Long gone are the days of Zaitsev and Gardiner.

Now, I am basing this "very good" on a healthy Jake Muzzin. If he's declining then we need someone else to fill in for what he brings.

Rielly is elite. He's not good defensively, but he tilts the ice for us every time he's out there. There are better players, but Rielly can play 25 minutes a night against any team in the league and we come out ahead.

Brodie is rock solid all around. Great #2.

Healthy Muzzin is how defense should be played. Elite #2. If he's slipping, he'll still be a capable contributor, but this is a big question mark for us. Was not good at all last year, I'm desperately hoping to see him return to form. He's a cup winner, core player, and a leader on the team.

Liljegren is young and improving. Can't wait to see how he does this year, I think he'll round out what is a very solid top4.

Gio is experienced and can play top4 minutes. Between him and Muzzin, we've got someone who can hold down and even carry the 2nd pair from the left side.

Sandin is young and needs to show more, but has IQ for days. If he can take a big step forward, then we'll have an elite blueline. If he doesn't, he's still a capable 3rd pairing and PP guy.

Holl is #7 on this blueline, which means we have terrific depth. Holl was a legitimate #4 two years ago and while he struggled mightily to start last year, he played well down the stretch and can play as high as #4 in a pinch. That's what good depth looks like.

Mete and Benn are probably garbage, but that's what #8's and 9's look like. I wouldn't be surprised to see us add a #5 capable guy at the deadline like with did with Lyubushkin last year.

There are teams with better D than us, but we were great defensively last year and let down by horrible goaltending.

 

[PROUD PAPA]

It's good enough.
It's not good enough to drag along struggling goaltending or an anemic offense but if everyone else is doing their part the defense can provide the necessary support.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Kind of too soon to tell since playoffs is 8months away.
But if playoffs start tomorrow, the Leafs Dcorps is good enough to for a deep playoffs run.

Yup. Defence has been really good ever since Keefe took over, goaltending seems to be a much bigger question mark as of today. And if I really want to be a nit, I'd say let's make the playoffs first.

Our defense has been very good for a few years now. Long gone are the days of Zaitsev and Gardiner.

Now, I am basing this "very good" on a healthy Jake Muzzin. If he's declining then we need someone else to fill in for what he brings.

Rielly is elite. He's not good defensively, but he tilts the ice for us every time he's out there. There are better players, but Rielly can play 25 minutes a night against any team in the league and we come out ahead.

Brodie is rock solid all around. Great #2.

Healthy Muzzin is how defense should be played. Elite #2. If he's slipping, he'll still be a capable contributor, but this is a big question mark for us. Was not good at all last year, I'm desperately hoping to see him return to form. He's a cup winner, core player, and a leader on the team.

Liljegren is young and improving. Can't wait to see how he does this year, I think he'll round out what is a very solid top4.

Gio is experienced and can play top4 minutes. Between him and Muzzin, we've got someone who can hold down and even carry the 2nd pair from the left side.

Sandin is young and needs to show more, but has IQ for days. If he can take a big step forward, then we'll have an elite blueline. If he doesn't, he's still a capable 3rd pairing and PP guy.

Holl is #7 on this blueline, which means we have terrific depth. Holl was a legitimate #4 two years ago and while he struggled mightily to start last year, he played well down the stretch and can play as high as #4 in a pinch. That's what good depth looks like.

Mete and Benn are probably garbage, but that's what #8's and 9's look like. I wouldn't be surprised to see us add a #5 capable guy at the deadline like with did with Lyubushkin last year.

There are teams with better D than us, but we were great defensively last year and let down by horrible goaltending.

Good summary, at least it seems bang on to me. Let's hope everyone is healthy and ready to rock when the playoffs start, especially Muzzin!

 

[Fogelhund]

For me the lack of a Muzzin alternative is a big gripe I have with team construction. Obviously the recent drafts won’t address the immediate team needs but a Braden Schneider or a Kaiden Guhle would have given us a plausible heir to that position.

Maybe... yet to be determined on either of these guys. Their progress has been decent so far, though Schneider is in over his head, and probably should have been developed slower. They'll probably both be decent guys in a couple of years.

We certainly lack any semblance of physical D in our system, and that needs to be rectified. We have a surplus of skilled focus guys, and at some point we need to cash those in for a bit more of a physical presence, to round out the system.