Draiskull
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- Oct 26, 2005
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Is McDavid Top 10 For You All Time Already? If Not How Much More Does He Have to do?
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MattMartin
Killer Instinct™
It's not really comparable. This guy is hands down the best player in the NHL ainec. He has held the title for good bit already. The guys in the NBA you speak of are not clearly the best player in the league category.
MattMartin
Killer Instinct™
I'm not in total disagreement of a guy who did much more with much less. Marino never had a Roger Craig or Jerry Rice. He also didn't have a Ronnie Lott on the D side of the ball. I guess you just can't say he clearly the best and there is no debate to be had the way you do with McDavid.
filinski77
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- Feb 12, 2017
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Did you even read the date that I posted that? It was over a year ago lol. At that time McDavid had less Rosses, 1 more Hart, same amount of rockets and Lindsay’s.
Then there’s the gigantic gap in overall point and goal accumulation.
Video Nasty
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- Mar 12, 2017
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That’s ironic coming from one of Hfboards top PPG and pace merchants.
WestCoast CyberG
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- Nov 5, 2018
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Absolutely Not.
He needs to win a few Stanley’s and that is not likely to happen in Deadmonton.
He needs to win a few Stanley’s and that is not likely to happen in Deadmonton.
Nemesis Prime
Registered User
Not true at all. Hasek for 5-6 years was the greatest goalie the league had ever seen, never won until he went to a stacked team later in his career. He was a worse goalie when he won the Cup then all those years when he didn't win.
Nathaniel Skywalker
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- Oct 18, 2013
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Difference crosby was consistently no lower than third in scoring in his prime
AlanHUK
5-14-6-1
I assume you're using PPG for Crosby because he had huge chunks of time missed through injury in his prime and obviously finished lower than 3rd in actual scoring, and if that's the case, then by the same metric McDavid hasn't been outside the top 3 in scoring at all in his career, as his rookie season he was 3rd in PPG and that was the only time he's been out of the top 2, in actual scoring or PPG
Nathaniel Skywalker
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Acallabeth
Post approved by Ovechkin
Why would he? It's not like the guy won 3 straight Art Ross Trophies before this season
GrandmaCookie
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- Feb 10, 2019
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How you came out with such a shit conclusion from the post you replied to is beyond impressive.
If you don't think McDavid is a top 10 NHL player than you lack any understanding of what you have been witnessing for the last 4-5 years. I think most just don't realize it yet because of how young he is, but his has literally done things that puts him on the most elite possible lists already.
The idea of someone like Crosby, Messier, Yzerman, etc, being ranked higher than him 20 years from now will be laughable. You just lack the foresight to see that.
The idea of someone like Crosby, Messier, Yzerman, etc, being ranked higher than him 20 years from now will be laughable. You just lack the foresight to see that.
Players who have won at least 3 Harts, 5 Rosses, 4 Pearsons:
Gretzky
Lemieux
McDavid
Players who have led the league in goals and assists in the same season, while also leading in goals/game, assists/game:
Gretzky
Lemieux
Howe
McDavid
He is a top 5 talent already.
Gretzky
Lemieux
McDavid
Players who have led the league in goals and assists in the same season, while also leading in goals/game, assists/game:
Gretzky
Lemieux
Howe
McDavid
He is a top 5 talent already.
I was the first one to say it, McDavid will repay me for my loyalty by signing with the Leafs and winning us a cup.
BraveCanadian
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- Jun 30, 2010
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There are defensemen and goaltenders in hockey, right?
Sure but as of now it's really hard to not put McDavid in the top 10 of all time, right?
Unusually try to keep goalies out of the equation for several reasons, the main one being that it's really hard to seperate the team from the goalie.
At least for position players it's easier to evaluate individual greatness.
Who do you have in your top 10 BTW?
For forwards I only have Gretzky, Mario, Howe and Crosby ahead of him and it's hard to argue that there are 6 Dmen and goalies who were greater.
I don't think so, still today.
But it's always hard for me to judge "if he retires now" scenarios, because complete lack of longevity is almost unheard of so not a lot of comparables.
I do think he's definitely on his way to #5 minimum barring some catastrophe. And finishing higher than #5 isn't impossible.
My top 10 is usually something along the lines of:
Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux
Howe
Crosby
Roy
Beliveau
Jagr
Bourque/Hasek/Ovechkin/Hull
Has McDavid already surpassed any of those? I don't think so. But he's well on his way to.
Beliveau, Hull, Jagr, Ovechkin, Roy, Hasek, etc.
The problem with a lot of these discussions is some people resort to trophy counting....as if a season without a trophy is meaningless. Some of these guys have ~15-20 elite seasons, to McDavid's 9.
15 > 9
If you want to compare best 9 seasons, McDavid is at worst #5 already. but the rest matters too. He'll get there eventually, I just think he needs a few more seasons to measure up better to players with full careers.
But it's always hard for me to judge "if he retires now" scenarios, because complete lack of longevity is almost unheard of so not a lot of comparables.
I do think he's definitely on his way to #5 minimum barring some catastrophe. And finishing higher than #5 isn't impossible.
My top 10 is usually something along the lines of:
Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux
Howe
Crosby
Roy
Beliveau
Jagr
Bourque/Hasek/Ovechkin/Hull
Has McDavid already surpassed any of those? I don't think so. But he's well on his way to.
Beliveau, Hull, Jagr, Ovechkin, Roy, Hasek, etc.
The problem with a lot of these discussions is some people resort to trophy counting....as if a season without a trophy is meaningless. Some of these guys have ~15-20 elite seasons, to McDavid's 9.
15 > 9
If you want to compare best 9 seasons, McDavid is at worst #5 already. but the rest matters too. He'll get there eventually, I just think he needs a few more seasons to measure up better to players with full careers.
The thing is that some of these guys have 15 elite seasons some have less and also some of these "elite seasons" aren't as elite as McDavid's so that does matter right?
I agree that it is folly to simply trophy count but do you really think Jagr has 15 "elite seasons"?
Beliveau?
He has seasons that were merely just okay but then again he played on such stacked Hab teams that he could be carried a bit and even have bad playoff runs with multiple HHOFers and people kind of glance over that point.
I mean let's take Jagr, who I rank higher than many in the HOH do.
I see 7 or 8 elite seasons and then a couple of very good ones.
After all he has 11 top 10 scoring finishes but they also break down like this.
1,1,1,1,1,2,2,5,6.8,9
McDavid breaks down like this
1,1,1,1,1,2,2,3
The difference is that Jagr has 3 of them outside the top 5 on really stacked teams where he is the secondary or 3rd best player on the team.
Not all first place or top 10 scoring finishes are equal here are they?
Also many people who are going to cite Jagr will also point to Drai in an all time ranking and say well Drai was kind of the passenger (like Jagr) except Jagr had the luxury of Mario being out quite a bit and also being supported for many years by some extremely skilled linemates at forward in Pittsburg.
Also McDavid's level of scoring dominance is greater in his top 10 scoring seasons than Jagr and McDavid has probably 3 playoff runs better than Jagr's best run.
Sure but many people who put Guy Lafleur up there as an all time great do so for basically a 6 year stretch and McDavid has had a longer stretch of dominance 8-9 years and has that 3 year playoff dominance that is getting really close if not better than Lafleur (minus the usual well Guy won the SC's as if the Habs and Oilers are even in the same ballpark).
I think the biggest case for McDavid clearly in the top 10 is that he has a legitmate case for being in the argument or hands down the best player in the world for 7-8 years straight and some of the guys you listed simply don't have that case.
They might have what I call more icing on their cakes but McDavid has a more solid base to his cake.
Even if one leans more towards your argument than mine McDavid is quickly gaining on those guys with elite all time seasons and playoffs and the weakness in the arguments for guys like Beliveau, Hull, Jagr, Ovechkin, Roy, Hasek become more of the difference IMO.
Goalies I will leave aside as they are generally more team dependant and are hard to compare to forwards who basically have to make their own way to greatness.
While I don’t disagree, to be fair, it was. A different era of hockey then in comparison to
now.
- There was no salary cap back then, it was much easier to create a stacked team.
- There were only 21 teams in the league when Gretzky was winning. There are 32 now.
- Gretzky won 4 times in 5 years on a stacked team. After that, he didn’t win again for the final 11 seasons of his career.
Only two players have ever had more points in a single playoff season.
McDavid needs 3 more points to catch Lemieux and have it be only Gretz ahead of him.
McDavid needs 3 more points to catch Lemieux and have it be only Gretz ahead of him.
Pig Papi
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