Is mcdavid too good not to win a cup?

[daver]

The Oilers right now play a similar dump-and-chase forchecking system that the Pens played(not EXACTLY the same, but close), and McDavid bought in.

McDavid bought in and he has 1 point in his last two games without playing with Draisaitl on his line.

The 2016 Pens played a puck possession strategy that saw them outshoot the other team significantly in most games. It was as important for the other team's #1 lines not score as it was for Crosby's line to score so the Malkin line, as usual, and specifically the HBK line, could have easier matchups. The HBK line literally did not have any defensive zone starts during that run.

Do you think that is conducive to maxing out Crosby's offensive production?

 

[daver]

So if he brought more value, what happened in his 30s? It's very clear he was still an amazing player, yet no results at all.

Value isn't solely measured by ppg, except when you are in the historic realm of basically supplanting Lemieux which is where McDavid is at for the playoffs.

Teams matter way more than most think.

Teams do matter.

That is why Crosby's 2009 performance is impressive. He and Malkin dragged a supporting cast that may have been the weakest for a Cup winner in NHL history.

It is why his 2016 performance is underrated. His versatility as a player enabled the Pens to create three scoring lines that lead to one of the better Cup wins since the lockout. He made his team better in a way that McDavid cannot given his grinding style.

I don't blame the Oilers for trying to exploit McDavid's strengths to generate offense but it needs to be acknowledged that Crosby could play more roles than just offensive weapon.

 

[daver]

Edmonton Lines 2021-22:
Kane - McDavid- Puljujarvi
Hyman - Draisaitl - Yamamoto
Foegele - RNH - Derek Ryan

Not exactly a stacked line combination for McDavid.

???????

Line Combinations - Frozen Tools

NHL line combinations, NHL lineups from dobberhockey.com

frozenpool.dobbersports.com

During the 2022 playoffs, McDavid played the most at ES with Draisaitl and Kane and almost half of his ES time with Draisaitl.

 

[daver]

The only way to argue that is to bring up vague, subjective metrics, and in that case, you can argue Crosby was more valuable than Gretzky or Lemieux because he created depth, for that matter. Crosby's line was not positive in 2016, which means the Pens needed other lines to be better. Why are we using the performance of other lines to give Crosby credit?. HBK played the way they did without Crosby, and they overplayed their abilities without Crosby. The pair elevated themselves without him. So, Crosby wasn’t single-handedly creating depth — he was operating within a system that allowed depth to shine.

It was a system that allowed for a dominant puck possession style that lead to the Pens winning. Crosby was the centrepeice.

If it wasn't working to a T then they would changed things up and Crosby would have gotten more points, which apparently is be all, end all of player success.

Anyways, this is getting repetitive.

If you are happy that McDavid has a super high playoff PPG with no Cups and want to compare him only to Wayne and Mario, then go right ahead. Be prepared for "trolls" to not accept that narrative.

 

[RevengeOfTheDrai]

???????

Line Combinations - Frozen Tools

NHL line combinations, NHL lineups from dobberhockey.com

frozenpool.dobbersports.com

During the 2022 playoffs, McDavid played the most at ES with Draisaitl and Kane and almost half of his ES time with Draisaitl.

I just checked 2016 & 2017 lines, and Crosby had 8% and 0% 5v5 frequency with Malkin. That’s impressive… he’d have a better PPG had he played with Malkin at even strength. I never knew his ice time with 71 was that low. You might have a point here.

 

[RevengeOfTheDrai]

It was a system that allowed for a dominant puck possession style that lead to the Pens winning. Crosby was the centrepeice.

If it wasn't working to a T then they would changed things up and Crosby would have gotten more points, which apparently is be all, end all of player success.

Anyways, this is getting repetitive.

If you are happy that McDavid has a super high playoff PPG with no Cups and want to compare him only to Wayne and Mario, then go right ahead. Be prepared for "trolls" to not accept that narrative.

Right but, the issue is how do we measure that contribution to see if Crosby was more valuable. Yes he’s more versatile, but how do we measure that versatility to argue say, his 2017 play being more valuable than McDavid’s 2024. It’s very rare that the “creating” depth factor comes when assessing players, since most teams play stacked lines.

 

[daver]

I just checked 2016 & 2017 lines, and Crosby had 8% and 0% 5v5 frequency with Malkin. That’s impressive… he’d have a better PPG had he played with Malkin at even strength. I never knew his ice time with 71 was that low. You might have a point here.

As I said, I was most impressed with McDavid in the WCF last year when he played on his own line and produced in a series that was a lot tighter checking than most of the Oilers other series during his career.

Did he have a point total in that series that was comparable to only Mario and Wayne? Nope

Was he more effective/more valuable in the 5 or 6 other series in his career where he did have a higher PPG? Not in my opinion.

Do PPGs matter when your team wins? Nope. It's whatever gets the Ws.

 

[Fourier]

Ever considered that maybe the Penguins goaltenders put up good numbers in part because of how the team in front of them played?

I am unconvinced that McDavid would buy into the system the 2017 Penguins played to win the cup.

Crosby 5 vs 5 GA/60 ....

2016 playoffs 2.92
2017 playoffs 2.78

McDavid 5 vs 5 GA/60

2023 playoffs 2.67
2024 playoffs 1.93

Remind me which years were the highest scoring years because of smaller goalie pads?

This year his GA/60 has ballooned to 3.02 so far but his xGA/60 is 1.96. Might have something to do with Skinner being unable to stop a beachball for the first two games of the LA series and game 3 of the Vegas series.

 

[daver]

Ever considered that maybe the Penguins goaltenders put up good numbers in part because of how the team in front of them played?

I am unconvinced that McDavid would buy into the system the 2017 Penguins played to win the cup.

We saw what happened when the Pens got well below average goaltending from MAF against the Caps in 2009. It turned into a shootout and Crosby got 8 goals and 13 points. That should sound familiar to McDavid fans.

In 2017, the Pens were not as dominant as they were in 2016, they simply did what they had to do to win, a sign of a great champion.

Perhaps you mean the 2016 system. Would McDavid buy-in? I don't see why not. Has he shown that a coach would have confidence to play a system like that? Not so far. I don't doubt his offensive skills but his strengths would risk being too leashed if he had to take on a true 2-way C role like Crosby did.

We will see what happens against Dallas. It feels like his ability to carry a line has diminished a bit this year. To be fair, it has been Draisaitl who has dropped the ball at ES moreso than McDavid when they have been separated over the past 3 playoffs.

 

[daver]

I have never denied that Crosby is a great player who contributed substantially to the Pens wins. But there is no evidence what so ever to support the assertion that had the Oilers had a prime Crosby the last few years instead of McDavid that their outcome would have been a cup.

Of course there is. He wins, period. But let's set aside the fact that Crosby could be setting a record for all-time championships won as a Captain this year.

Beyond clearly carrying a clearly statisically infererior pair of linemates in 2009, Crosby was on the same productive tier as McDavid has been through their first ten seasons while playing more of a true #1 C role and being recognized for his defensive abilities during his prime.

 

[Fourier]

Of course there is. He wins, period. But let's set aside the fact that Crosby could be setting a record for all-time championships won as a Captain this year.

Beyond clearly carrying a clearly statisically infererior pair of linemates in 2009, Crosby was on the same productive tier as McDavid has been through their first ten seasons while playing more of a true #1 C role and being recognized for his defensive abilities during his prime.

How many championships did Gretzky win in LA? How many did he win in Edmonton?

Why is it that Crosby did not win every year?

 

[nbwingsfan]

Can we all just agree to not respond to Daver anymore in this thread? McDavid could score 5pts a game and he will still say Crosby was better. Literally nothing will change his mind, no matter how ridiculous (remember this is the “grace period” guy).

 

[Fourier]

Can we all just agree to not respond to Daver anymore in this thread? McDavid could score 5pts a game and he will still say Crosby was better. Literally nothing will change his mind, no matter how ridiculous (remember this is the “grace period” guy).

I'll take your advice!

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

In way more dominant fashion. This year's depth + team defense is on another level.

Plus, they'll have home ice this time around, so no shitty Sunrise-in-June ice where players fall to their asses half the time in game 7. Bad ice is great for defensive teams. Great ice is great for speedy skaters like McDavid.

 

[Video Nasty]

As evidenced by what?

Oh I don’t know, by constantly doing things with the moniker “only Gretzky and Lemieux” attached to them.

So now we’re not just removing games McDavid did get points in, but we’re now removing periods of hockey
he did get points in as well?

This is so so sad.

Same guy doesn’t care that Crosby sat out most of Game 7 in 2009 and watched and breathed a sigh of relief, unaware his teammates saved him from not winning a Cup or Conn Smythe until his 11th season.

 

[RevengeOfTheDrai]

Can we all just agree to not respond to Daver anymore in this thread? McDavid could score 5pts a game and he will still say Crosby was better. Literally nothing will change his mind, no matter how ridiculous (remember this is the “grace period” guy).

I think Daver is in general a very good poster, maybe he’s just from Cole Harbour and is a big fan of Crosby. I think to impress Daver, McDavid has to preform on his own line with fourth liners without Draisaitl and the Oil to win the cup. Thing is, McDavid has to do more than Crosby to win since his teammates don’t always step up(apart from Drai and Bouchard).

I always thought Nathaniel started the ‘grace period’ thing. You learn something new everyday…

 

[bambamcam4ever]

How many championships did Gretzky win in LA? How many did he win in Edmonton?

Why is it that Crosby did not win every year?

Why is it that McDavid has never won? At anything?

 

[nbwingsfan]

Why is it that McDavid has never won? At anything?

He literally scored the GWG in the 4 nations like 3 months ago…

 

[RevengeOfTheDrai]

Why is it that McDavid has never won? At anything?

He won the four nations tournament scoring the golden goal.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Why is it that McDavid has never won? At anything?

thats true if you dont count the WC and WJC gold medals

 

[bambamcam4ever]

He won the four nations tournament scoring the golden goal.

Forgot about that one

 

[daver]

I think Daver is in general a very good poster, maybe he’s just from Cole Harbour and is a big fan of Crosby. I think to impress Daver, McDavid has to preform on his own line with fourth liners without Draisaitl and the Oil to win the cup. Thing is, McDavid has to do more than Crosby to win since his teammates don’t always step up(apart from Drai and Bouchard).

After 29 pages you still need to see the playoff goal and point totals of the 2009 Pens???

That was the historical epitome of a team being "dragged to a Cup" by it's two top players. You will not find any Cup winner where the discrepency between it's two top scorers and its supporting cast is greater. Both were 100% clear of the 3rd best Pens scorer in both the playoffs AND in the regular season.

I anxiously await your response in the form of an indepth look at the 2016 Pens.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Forgot about that one

yeah easy mistake to make even for hockey experts

 

[daver]

He won the four nations tournament scoring the golden goal.

Full marks for that. Not quite on the level of Crosby's Golden Goal but similar in that he was likely going to take the most criticism if they lost in OT and another player was choosen as MVP.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Full marks for that. Not quite on the level of Crosby's Golden Goal but similar in that he was likely going to take the most criticism if they lost in OT and another player was choosen as MVP.

Crosby taught McDavid how to win this winter. Forever grateful for that.